Do Shaving Soap Trace Ingredients Ever Matter or is it All About the Base?

[Lane101]

Over the past couple years I've purchased a number of different shaving soaps such as Mitchell's Wool Fat (tallow formula), Tabac (new formula), What-the-Puck, Williams, Arko, Van Der Hagen, D.R. Harris and Cyril R. Salter. All these soaps work well for me and I enjoy the variation in lather characteristics and scent. Leaving scent aside there was no surprise that the lather characteristics vary as none of these soaps use an identical set of base ingredients. Even my very similar D.R. Harris Windsor and Cyril R. Salter require different levels of effort to create excellent lather that is easily explained by variances in the base ingredients (Top two ingredients: Cyril - Sodium Tallowate, Potassium Stearate, D.R. Harris - Potassium Palmate, Sodium Tallowate).

Recently I compared two of my softer Italian shaving soaps that use the same base (identical top 5 ingredients). One of these, Tcheon Fung Sing "Ciotola Rossa" (Red Bowl) is a more basic soap with little else added beyond the base beyond an almond scented fragrance. The other, Razorocks P.160 with a similar Almond scent, uses what appears to be the same base with the addition of a wide range additional ingredients including Tallow, Lanolin, Shea Butter, Argan Oil and Aloe that are heavily marketed to provide superior performance. Both are moderately priced soaps with the Red Bowl around $3-4 for 125ml and the P.160 selling for $6-$9 in a larger 150ml tub.

Since the main difference between these soaps are the trace ingredients (all #6 or higher on the list) I did a comparison and was surprised to find that, while these are both excellent soaps, all the extra ingredients in the Razorock P.160 made no detectable difference in either lather quality or lathering ease (link to my detailed post on this below). I lathered similar quantities of both soaps in the same way by scooping out almond sized portions that were spread across the bottom of my 4" stainless lathering bowl.

Later I found that @Wgg2017 had done a similar comparison with these soaps, and a couple of much higher end products, around a year ago and had similar results finding almost no difference in lather quality.

Again the focus here is on lathering ease and performance, not scent. Shaving soap trace ingredients are very important for imparting the unique scents in our soaps.

So the question here is you ever experienced significant differences in shaving soap performance from the addition of trace ingredients or has it just the top 4-6 ingredients that really matter for shaving soap performance?

We often pay significant premiums for similar base soaps with these trace ingredients. If they don't really matter then we should just make our purchasing decisions per the soap base (top 4-6 ingredients), scent and, for premium soaps, quality of the container artwork that some consider collectable.



Comparison of Razorock P.160 to TFS Red Bowl Ingredients: (Base in Blue Italics)(Select unique ingredients in red Italics)

Tcheon Fung Sing "Ciotola Rossa" Traditional Artisan Shaving Soap:
Stearic Acid, Aqua(Water), Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Potassium Hydroxide, Sodium Hydroxide, Fragrance (Parfum), Potassium Carbonate

P.160 Shaving Soap:
Stearic Acid, Water(Eau), Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Potassium, Hydroxide, Sodium Hydroxide, Tallow Acid, Hydrogenated Lanolin, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea)Butter,Fragrance(Parfum), Argania Spinosa (Argan)Oil, Aloe Barbadensis Extract(Aloe).



Link to P.160 and TFS Red Bowl Review/Comparison post#28:
Razorock Santa Maria Del Fiore Firenze Shave Soap - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/razorock-santa-maria-del-fiore-firenze-shave-soap.548869/page-2#post-12661434

Link to Wgg2017 's Italian Shaving Soap Comparision Including P.160 and TFS Red Bowl:

Four Italian, Almond Scented Soaps Compared

I didn't really intend to do a comparison between these four soaps but I ended up using them each for my last four shaves. I thought my experience was pretty eye opening. The four soaps: 1. Antica Barbieria Colla Almond Oil Shave Cream $79.00 for 100ml -- Stearic Acid, Aqua (Water), Cocos...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[ksblazer]

While I have noticed that those main ingredients seem to be the foundation for most soaps. I’ve never been one to study what’s in my shave soaps all that much. Probably because I was just too lazy to look them up.

Over the years I’ve tried a variety of soaps that were popular artisan and compared to the traditional shave soaps. I really didn’t get much of a difference from the way they removed my whiskers.

The scents were nice on a couple. But I had some that didn’t live up to my expectations.

The post shave was nice with some the super fated soaps. Some days they left my face feeling a bit on the oily side. But after a few shaves in a row with them. I noticed that I would break out with acne. So I could only use them once a week. Without having any issues.

After realizing this I stocked up on soaps that worked for me and paired them with an aftershave with scents that I like.

I’m just as happy when I’m done with my shaves and I’ve saved a few $$ in the process.

 

[mladenius]

Many of the ingredients of shaving soaps are gimmicks and more of the marketing thing. Have you look on ingredients list of some artisans, list is almost long as a some page in the manual lol. Bunch of plant oils with questionable effect on skin care or protection. You have soaps (artisans and traditional ones) with minimal ingredients list which are superb so you can decide for yourself.
And what's about people obsession with scent of the soap? Some artisans are simply loaded too much with the parfume which could also cause skin irritation for some people.
It's a overrated thing and if you want potent smell that last for the long time you should use EDT or essential oils.

 

[Pinto90]

Recently I compared two of my softer Italian shaving soaps that use the same base (identical top 5 ingredients). One of these, Tcheon Fung Sing "Ciotola Rossa" (Red Bowl) is a more basic soap with little else added beyond the base beyond an almond scented fragrance. The other, Razorocks P.160 with a similar Almond scent, uses what appears to be the same base with the addition of a wide range additional ingredients including Tallow, Lanolin, Shea Butter, Argan Oil and Aloe that are heavily marketed to provide superior performance. Both are moderately priced soaps with the Red Bowl around $3-4 for 125ml and the P.160 selling for $6-$9 in a larger 150ml tub.

This bowl costs about 1€ 50 cent for 150 ml in Italy.

Compare ingredients with your TFS red bowl.

Edit. In Italy TFS red bowl costs 1.95€ for 125 ml, always more than Figaro shaving cream.

 

[blethenstrom]

Much of the "fancy" ingredients are marketing. Now I say that but they may also work out the process in such a way that some of these fancier ingredients are left over after saponification to enhance skin conditioning or other purpose. However, i think this reason is implemented in very few instances.

Just because you know and have identical top 4-5 ingredients does not mean that the soaps will perform, lather etc etc the same. You may know the order of the ingredients, but you really do not know the ratios. these are part of the soap makers "secret" sauce. For example Tallow, Stearic acid, Coconut oil, etc might be your top ingredients. You may have

95% Tallow, 3% Stearic acid, 1% Coconut oil, 1% other or
25% Tallow, 25% Stearic acid, 25% Coconut oil, 25% other or anything in between and still have the same ingredient list. These would VASTLY be different in behavior. Actually none would be great in this case.

 

[Pinto90]

Just because you know and have identical top 4-5 ingredients does not mean that the soaps will perform, lather etc etc the same. You may know the order of the ingredients, but you really do not know the ratios. these are part of the soap makers "secret" sauce. For example Tallow, Stearic acid, Coconut oil, etc might be your top ingredients. You may have

95% Tallow, 3% Stearic acid, 1% Coconut oil, 1% other or
25% Tallow, 25% Stearic acid, 25% Coconut oil, 25% other or anything in between and still have the same ingredient list. These would VASTLY be different in behavior. Actually none would be great in this case.

Your reasoning sounds right to me but I would like to understand it better.

To go back for example to the picture I posted, the ingredients of the Figaro shaving cream as you can see are the same, identical as the TFS shaving cream in red bowl.

At least in the case of this soap shouldn't what you write apply i.e. only the percentage and ratio of ingredients change to justify the price difference?

 

[blethenstrom]

At least in the case of this soap shouldn't what you write apply i.e. only the percentage and ratio of ingredients change to justify the price difference?

Sometimes the higher price for something is warranted like what you pointed out that it should be. They may use better quality parts, ingredients what have you. Sometimes it is not.

Companies always want to make the most margin on their products. That is just part of doing business. Many times what you pay for an item is driven heavy by what marketing an item gets. This is to build a stronger brand and drive margins higher. We have to keep in mind that a product is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay. If Figaro figured out tomorrow that they could get the same number of people pay 5 euro for their soap in Italy, they would change their prices right away.

This is where value of a product comes in. If TFS and Figaro performs the same with miniscule difference in ingredients. I would buy the lower cost/ml. In this case Figaro. If enough people makes the same decision the competitor, TFS in this case, may have to reconsider their pricing structure to not loose more customers. Hunting products that gives you great value is one of my passions.

 

[Pinto90]

If TFS and Figaro performs the same with miniscule difference in ingredients. I would buy the lower cost/ml. In this case Figaro. If enough people makes the same decision the competitor, TFS in this case, may have to reconsider their pricing structure to not loose more customers. Hunting products that gives you great value is one of my passions.

Boris, Figaro and TFS red bowl don't work the same way with slight differences but they are the same soap for different customers.

The ingredients are the same, no even small differences.
Figaro cream is produced by TFS on behalf of another company MiLMil and is intended for more general customers who buy in supermarkets and discounters therefore must cost less than two euros to compete with the competition.

Generally the user who buys shaving soap at the supermarket does not have high demands ,he just wants to shave and would not be willing to pay that soap at a higher price high price.

The TFS red bowl is the most classic of the TFS soaps dedicated to barbers and avid shaving users who are willing to pay a little more.
The difference in sizes and price is all there.

Agreed as an avid shaving user I would be willing to pay more for a shaving soap, not if I find the same,identical soap at a lower price with a different brand.

I have not tried TFS red bowl but in the Italian forum they wrote that Figaro and TFS red bowl are the same soap,no difference.

Opinions,feelings and preferences might lead those who try them to compare them to say they are different, in fact they are the same soap in different format and price, precisely because they target different consumer groups.

 

[blethenstrom]

Boris, Figaro and TFS red bowl don't work the same way with slight differences but they are the same soap for different customers.

The ingredients are the same, no even small differences.
Figaro cream is produced by TFS on behalf of another company MiLMil and is intended for more general customers who buy in supermarkets and discounters therefore must cost less than two euros to compete with the competition.

Generally the user who buys shaving soap at the supermarket does not have high demands ,he just wants to shave and would not be willing to pay that soap at a higher price high price.

The TFS red bowl is the most classic of the TFS soaps dedicated to barbers and avid shaving users who are willing to pay a little more.
The difference in sizes and price is all there.

Agreed as an avid shaving user I would be willing to pay more for a shaving soap, not if I find the same,identical soap at a lower price with a different brand.

I have not tried TFS red bowl but in the Italian forum they wrote that Figaro and TFS red bowl are the same soap,no difference.

Opinions,feelings and preferences might lead those who try them to compare them to say they are different, in fact they are the same soap in different format and price, precisely because they target different consumer groups.

Cool I learned something today . I did not know that TFS and Figaro was made by the same company with the same formula. I do own a tub of TFS, but I have not tried it yet. So this seems like a classic case of rebranding for a different market segment. This makes perfect sense then. A different audience, a different price for the same product. Again back to my marketing and margin comments. They can make more money to a different target group. This becomes even more clear when it is sold in different countries. Of course you may have transport, tariffs, logistical costs associated with doing that, but many times I think that it is inflated beyond that. Take TFS for example. Just looked up what I could buy it for here in the US and it is $6.50 = 6.09 euro and you said that in Italy it goes for 1.95 euro. That is more than 200% increase! It is the same way if you buy something that is made in the US in the US vs buy it in Italy.

 

[Pinto90]

This becomes even more clear when it is sold in different countries. Of course you may have transport, tariffs, logistical costs associated with doing that, but many times I think that it is inflated beyond that. Take TFS for example. Just looked up what I could buy it for here in the US and it is $6.50 = 6.09 euro and you said that in Italy it goes for 1.95 euro. That is more than 200% increase! It is the same way if you buy something that is made in the US in the US vs buy it in Italy.

It's not that easy to buy TFS brand soaps even here in Italy, it depends on the area.
Obviously for logistical, shipping and transport reasons, the only advantage of buying TFS soaps in Italy is exclusively in the cheapest price, if and when you can find them in local stores.
Contrary to what you might think, in Italy it is not so easy to find TFS shaving soaps in physical stores.
These TFS shaving soaps are not distributed in a widespread and uniform manner throughout the Italian territory, it depends on the area or region in which one dwells or resides.

They can be found in many shops in Northern Italy, a little less in central and southern Italy.
So sometimes it might be more convenient even for us Italians to get TFS soaps by ordering them from online stores or from Amazon when there are cheap deals.
I have never found them in the physical shops of my city of origin and in my entire region, you have to move to the big cities such as Rome, Florence, Milan, Turin, there they are found in the specialized shops of suppliers for barbers or always in northern Italy, they are also found in supermarkets.

It may seem like a paradox that in any area of Italy it is much easier to find Figaro (same as TFS red bowl) in supermarkets and small shops, rather than TFS shaving cream in a red bowl or other soaps with the TFS brand.

 

[blethenstrom]

It's not that easy to buy TFS brand soaps even here in Italy, it depends on the area.
Obviously for logistical, shipping and transport reasons, the only advantage of buying TFS soaps in Italy is exclusively in the cheapest price, if and when you can find them in local stores.
Contrary to what you might think, in Italy it is not so easy to find TFS shaving soaps in physical stores.
These TFS shaving soaps are not distributed in a widespread and uniform manner throughout the Italian territory, it depends on the area or region in which one dwells or resides.

They can be found in many shops in Northern Italy, a little less in central and southern Italy.
So sometimes it might be more convenient even for us Italians to get TFS soaps by ordering them from online stores or from Amazon when there are cheap deals.
I have never found them in the physical shops of my city of origin and in my entire region, you have to move to the big cities such as Rome, Florence, Milan, Turin, there they are found in the specialized shops of suppliers for barbers or always in northern Italy, they are also found in supermarkets.

It may seem like a paradox that in any area of Italy it is much easier to find Figaro (same as TFS red bowl) in supermarkets and small shops, rather than TFS shaving cream in a red bowl or other soaps with the TFS brand.

Everything seems to have moved online. There is hardly any traditional shaving items in any brick and mortar stores here in the US. You find the Van Der Hagen shave soap is some stores, but that number is shrinking too. No real lathering shave creams. It is all geared towards cartridge shaving. Some few larger cities may have a store, but that is if you are lucky. I live in to Raleigh, NC and even if there are about 400,000 people living here there is, as far as I know, no brick and mortar store that sells wet shaving supplies. At least not a selection of it. Is that the same way in Italy?

 

[Captain Howdy]

Those ingredients appear to be aimed at post shave, rather than lather quality.

In any case, considering is TFS, I'd wager the amounts put in the soap are only just enough to be able to legally list said ingredients on the ingredient list. Truly "trace" in this instance and, perhaps, not an ideal candidate to weigh the influence of certain ingredients for that reason.

 

[nav]

I make my own soap and was very meticulous in my process of coming up with the best recipe possible.

I went through many trials where all I changed in the formula were micro ingredients and left the macro ingredients as is.

I found no difference in any aspect of the shaving soap with around 8 micro ingredients which I tested.

What DID make a difference were beeswax and lanolin. These are micro ingredients being less than 4% of the non-water ingredients but definitely made a perceivable difference.

I keep my base simple and don't use micro ingredients except either beeswax or lanolin. No herbal extracts, no fruit extracts, no silk etc.

I do use a large proportions of several butters in the base. I find this really helps during and after the shave!

 

[Pinto90]

Everything seems to have moved online. There is hardly any traditional shaving items in any brick and mortar stores here in the US. You find the Van Der Hagen shave soap is some stores, but that number is shrinking too. No real lathering shave creams. It is all geared towards cartridge shaving. Some few larger cities may have a store, but that is if you are lucky. I live in to Raleigh, NC and even if there are about 400,000 people living here there is, as far as I know, no brick and mortar store that sells wet shaving supplies. At least not a selection of it. Is that the same way in Italy?

I see on Wikipedia that Raleigh is the second largest city in North Carolina, a population of 400,000, I guess a big city, can't not have stores that specialize in supply and items for barber stores,barbershops,beauticians or cosmetics that sell shaving creams or soaps.

In my experience and to the best of my knowledge,in Italy even the smallest provincial capital cities have at least one store of supplies and products for beauticians,barbers,you can find various soaps from classic and traditional Proraso to Noxzema, more emblazoned creams like TOBS, Colonials, De Vergulde, Pannacrema, from northern to southern Italy.

For TFS in southern Italy it is difficult to find them, from the cheapest soaps to the most expensive ones; I am not knowledgeable enough about where to find them, I admit that I am not a fan of TFS soaps, so if for work or vacation reasons,I move to another city or region of Italy, other than where I live, I certainly do not go in search of their soaps.

 

[blethenstrom]

I see on Wikipedia that Raleigh is the second largest city in North Carolina, a population of 400,000, I guess a big city, can't not have stores that specialize in supply and items for barber stores,barbershops,beauticians or cosmetics that sell shaving creams or soaps.

In my experience and to the best of my knowledge,in Italy even the smallest provincial capital cities have at least one store of supplies and products for beauticians,barbers,you can find various soaps from classic and traditional Proraso to Noxzema, more emblazoned creams like TOBS, Colonials, De Vergulde, Pannacrema, from northern to southern Italy.

For TFS in southern Italy it is difficult to find them, from the cheapest soaps to the most expensive ones; I am not knowledgeable enough about where to find them, I admit that I am not a fan of TFS soaps, so if for work or vacation reasons,I move to another city or region of Italy, other than where I live, I certainly do not go in search of their soaps.

I cannot say that i am not a little bit jealous, but that may have gotten myself into even bigger trouble if we had stores like that around.

 

[mladenius]

Everything seems to have moved online. There is hardly any traditional shaving items in any brick and mortar stores here in the US. You find the Van Der Hagen shave soap is some stores, but that number is shrinking too. No real lathering shave creams. It is all geared towards cartridge shaving. Some few larger cities may have a store, but that is if you are lucky. I live in to Raleigh, NC and even if there are about 400,000 people living here there is, as far as I know, no brick and mortar store that sells wet shaving supplies. At least not a selection of it. Is that the same way in Italy?

It's much better situation in Europe. You can find many traditional shaving products (or at least some of them) in supermarkets and drugstores. For example in Germany you can find Tabac, Speick and Pitralon in Mueller drugstore chain. In Serbia where I live you can find Palmira shaving soap, cream and some others which are locally produced in supermarkets. Not too bad.

 

[Pinto90]

It's much better situation in Europe. You can find many traditional shaving products (or at least some of them) in supermarkets and drugstores. For example in Germany you can find Tabac, Speick and Pitralon in Mueller drugstore chain. In Serbia where I live you can find Palmira shaving soap, cream and some others which are locally produced in supermarkets. Not too bad.

German soaps can also be found in Italy, pheraps also Florena for men and Balea.

Personally I don't like them much except Tabac.
I have an old Tabac soap dated 2017 with tallow that I used recently and will use in the next few days, it gives a great lather and very protective.
I’m glad I kept it for several years.

If you don't mind me asking just out of curiosity I think are you Serbian?
When you replied to my post about Areffa soaps from Ukraine I thought you were froam Croatia or Bulgarian.
Palmira soap I have never tried but I had read that it is the most common shaving soap to find in Serbia.

In Serbia you can also find MEM, Domino and Habana shaving cream?

 

[Hawkweber]

Is it All About the Base?​

No treble.

 

[rsp1202]

Is it All About the Base?​

No treble.

 

[mladenius]

German soaps can also be found in Italy, pheraps also Florena for men and Balea.

Personally I don't like them much except Tabac.
I have an old Tabac soap dated 2017 with tallow that I used recently and will use in the next few days, it gives a great lather and very protective.
I’m glad I kept it for several years.

If you don't mind me asking just out of curiosity I think are you Serbian?
When you replied to my post about Areffa soaps from Ukraine I thought you were froam Croatia or Bulgarian.
Palmira soap I have never tried but I had read that it is the most common shaving soap to find in Serbia.

In Serbia you can also find MEM, Domino and Habana shaving cream?

Yes I am from Serbia!
Domino and Habana shaving cream you can only find in North Macedonia where they are produced, and maybe in Kosovo.
In Serbia you can find Palmira shaving soap and cream, Brion splash and shaving cream, Eliot shaving cream and splashes, Tobacco splashes, and some others less known ones as Millenium.
They are all made in Serbia and in spite of being cheap they are all very good products, especially Palmira soap and Brion who have cult status here as they are one of the oldest brands here.
MEM products were used to be made in Serbia but now they are just rebranded Chinese products - they were pretty decent but now they are terrible, with bad QC.
Palmira soap is actually what is Tcheon Fung Sing or Vitos soap in Italy - cheap, frugal products which gets the job done pretty decent.
Aside from that we have two excellent artisan soaps - Dendi and Vreto which are in my opinion as good or better than any artisan from the USA.