Curious ‘bout Gold Dollar

[Slash McCoy]

I would expect any competent razor honer to be able to sharpen a plane iron to a usable level of edge quality. I would not expect him to be able to create a long lasting edge of superior quality on the same iron that would impress the pickiest woodworker.

I would expect a tool guy, with minimal coaching, to be able to hone a razor to a level of edge quality that most would regard as shave ready. I would not expect him to be able to create the insanely sharp edge that cutting edge razor guys can make on a routine basis.

There are sorta shave ready edges that can shave. There are phaser sharp edges that almost frighten the whiskers from their follicles. So you really have to ask yourself, what is good enough for you?

A 1k edge, skillfully applied and skillfully used, will shave. However, nobody would ever do so, and say it was among the best shaves he has ever had. An 8k edge from an average honer should be sharp enough to shave with, if one were not picky about shaving comfort and he was reasonably skilled and experienced with a razor. And even though this was routine in years past, and considered satisfactory, it's not anymore. It is too easy to get a MUCH sharper AND smoother edge.

Yes, you need to strop. No stone can strop an edge. It is completely different from honing. Yeah you "could" shave without stropping, with a freshly honed razor. But you could also just shave with your pocketknife. Why would you, other than as "stunt shaving"?

In a nutshell, I would not recommend accepting a "tool guy" who doesn't believe in stropping as your youtube razor honing guru. Just sayin. Could you? Of course. But why would you?

 

[Raymondmillbrae]

One more thing I’d like to mention about the Morley straight razor I purchased.

The person I purchased it from, said he used tape in the sharpening process.

I got feedback that this may be problematic to me if I sharpen it on my own, as I would have to know what type of tape, and the tape thickness, to be able to recreate the same angles he used when sharpening it.

So now my first question is, “Do I go for it with tape, or do I start over and make a new bevel from scratch WITHOUT tape”?

 

[EspressoAndAftershave]

I've got a 12K grit Naniwa, a lapping stone to keep it flat, a bar of chromox, and a linen/ leather strop. I would assume that would keep my SR edges in good shape, barring a drop of the blade on a sink, etc. Old timey barbers used to use shaving cream on a stone to keep the edge, so I would assume I'm in good shape for maintenance.

 

[LJS]

Raymondmillbrae - I’m going to recommend you view this video with a grain of salt. No stropping? That’s like a mechanic telling you he doesn’t need tools. Pretty outlandish. You will find much keener advice from razor lovers.

Regarding tape, yes no maybe. Because it depends. I don’t use tape for much but sometimes have to. When I have to....I have to and you likely won’t be able to get a shaving edge without it. But some folks use it liberally and some all the time. A decent razor that is not wonky, you can hone it but need to start by resetting the bevel somewhere around 1k but maybe can get away with higher grit just more laps. Often you can get a new bevel non-taped pretty quickly over the taped bevel. Then continue honing from there as normal. If you razor has geometry issues or full wedge or decorative spine then you may require tape.

Best of luck to you!

 

[Raymondmillbrae]

Just curious.

Playing devils advocate here.

Seems that folks are dead-set on stropping a blade to finish it.

Stropping the blade supposedly knocks-off the feathery metal pieces hanging off the edge (created from lapping on the stone) and also realigns the very edge one last time.

But wouldn’t what he did on the video do the same? (He touched the edge in the stone to get the feathery metal pieces off, and also gave it a few final strokes in a 32,000k stone immediately afterwards).

Secondly (still playing devils advocate here)...if a master blade honer can get an outstanding edge from an 8,000k stone in the old days, followed with a good stropping to get a outstanding shaving edge...Why couldn’t you get an even better edge by going up almost FOUR TIMES the grit in stones, without the stropping? (From an 8,000k to a 32,000k).

Honestly, I’m just a newbie here. But is seems a bit strange to say an 8k hone with a good stropping, will give you a hands-down, no questions asked, better edge than going down to a 32,000k stone.

Just curious.

I’m not protecting the gentleman on the video, as I do not know him from Adam.

But he seems solid, and I do not understand why stropping is absolutely necessary for a razors edge, when you can go down to a 32,000k stone.

I’ve checkout out a few micron spectrometry photos of finished razors and scalpels, and I am not sure that stropping, or non-stropping, is an absolute measure to a persons competence in being a masterful straight razor honer.

I’m just standing back, reading all the comments and information (neutrally), and digesting everything.

Once again, just curious.

 

[global_dev]

if a master blade honer can get an outstanding edge from an 8,000k stone in the old days,

I think the def’n of outstanding has changed significantly in the last decade in terms of average edge now.

Why couldn’t you get an even better edge by going up almost FOUR TIMES the grit in stones, without the stropping? (From an 8,000k to a 32,000k).

Some razors cant hold a 32K edge. Metal, bevel angle, etc. it might even be too harsh an edge for your taste maybe even depending on the binder and cutter

 

[Raymondmillbrae]

I think the def’n of outstanding has changed significantly in the last decade in terms of average edge now.



Some razors cant hold a 32K edge. Metal, bevel angle, etc. it might even be too harsh an edge for your taste maybe even depending on the binder and cutter

Good response!

I am also considering the fact that just because it is the absolute sharpest (like a DE Feather blade, for example), might not make it the smoothest or most comfortable.

I’m still thinking things through.

Especially about the direction I will take in either stones or film.

Like someone mentioned, maybe a good 12k Naniwa, and my Tony Miller strop, might be all I’ll need to maintain my new razor.

Never considered that I might just be able to sharpen away at my straight razor without the tape (on a 12k Stone), and get a new bevel.

A bit more time consuming, but it should work. Or even some film if it doesn’t...just till I get the bevel right.

 

[LJS]

Stropping the blade supposedly knocks-off the feathery metal pieces hanging off the edge (created from lapping on the stone) and also realigns the very edge one last time.

Ok, you have this sort of right and completely underestimated.

If there is a wire edge/foil edge from poor honing then initial stropping action can remove. But this is not why you have to strop.

Realigning the very edge as you put it, is probably more than that in ways but let’s go with what you said but realize that this perfect edge is what makes it sharp. The razor edge is at the cusp of all steel can do and not simply fold over. Stropping keeps that edge an edge and not a battered piece of metal after shaving.

Another way I will put it is a strop is 100x more important than a hone. No hone not a big deal. No strop and you aren’t shaving. Understand the importance I am emphasizing? As are stropping skills but that has to come after you have one

But seriously a strop, clean leather, is a must while so many other things are just “nice to haves”. Focus more on a strop and how to strop and you will have many more Uber sharp shaves than spending time up front honing.

 

[LJS]

Like someone mentioned, maybe a good 12k Naniwa, and my Tony Miller strop, might be all I’ll need to maintain my new razor.

Yes as long as you don’t hit the edge or something requiring more work.

Never considered that I might just be able to sharpen away at my straight razor without the tape (on a 12k Stone), and get a new bevel.

No. You cannot set a new bevel with a 12k from taped bevel. I guess you can with a few million strokes and wear out your stone. Use the right stone for bevel setting.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Just curious.

Playing devils advocate here.

Seems that folks are dead-set on stropping a blade to finish it.

Stropping the blade supposedly knocks-off the feathery metal pieces hanging off the edge (created from lapping on the stone) and also realigns the very edge one last time.

But wouldn’t what he did on the video do the same? (He touched the edge in the stone to get the feathery metal pieces off, and also gave it a few final strokes in a 32,000k stone immediately afterwards).

Secondly (still playing devils advocate here)...if a master blade honer can get an outstanding edge from an 8,000k stone in the old days, followed with a good stropping to get a outstanding shaving edge...Why couldn’t you get an even better edge by going up almost FOUR TIMES the grit in stones, without the stropping? (From an 8,000k to a 32,000k).

Honestly, I’m just a newbie here. But is seems a bit strange to say an 8k hone with a good stropping, will give you a hands-down, no questions asked, better edge than going down to a 32,000k stone.

Just curious.

I’m not protecting the gentleman on the video, as I do not know him from Adam.

But he seems solid, and I do not understand why stropping is absolutely necessary for a razors edge, when you can go down to a 32,000k stone.

I’ve checkout out a few micron spectrometry photos of finished razors and scalpels, and I am not sure that stropping, or non-stropping, is an absolute measure to a persons competence in being a masterful straight razor honer.

I’m just standing back, reading all the comments and information (neutrally), and digesting everything.

Once again, just curious.

Stropping burnishes the bevel and aligns the edge. Its primary purpose is NOT to remove artifacts from the edge, though it may do so in many cases. The best way to remove artifacts is to HONE THEM OFF. There are techniques for this and they do not generally involve a hanging strop.

In "The old days", they had no better tools than what they had, and so they never knew that an edge could be any better. We know better, now.

I finish my edges on 200,000 grit diamond embedded into balsa. I can still tell the difference in the shave between stropping first and not stropping.

Yes, you CAN shave without stropping. But it is much, much, MUCH better to strop. If you shave without stropping, it won't cause the stock market to crash or a volcano to erupt in Jackson Square, and if you NEVER shave with a stropped razor, you won't be aware of what you are missing and you may even enjoy shaving, particularly if you are into discomfort.

32k stone? Not needed, not desired, and if it is large enough to not be in any way limiting, then probably expensive. Who makes this 32k stone, anyway? If you really want to take an edge to the next level then completely read the Newbie Honing Compendium thread and all the threads linked from within, beginning to end, and follow directions exactly. Yes, every single detail matters and there is really no sense in trying to freestyle it when The Method is proven and your imagination is not.

And now this. Without a good bevel completely set, you absolutely can not ever get a good edge. Each stage of honing must completely obliterate the coarser scratches left by the previous stage. You must not leave a fin or wire edge. If you can NOT shave with your 8k edge, it probably will not benefit in the slightest from the 12k stone. If it can NOT treetop at 1/4" above the skin, it probably will not benefit from .5u diamond on balsa. Ditto the .25u and .1u stages. You can stop anywhere you like, and shave. You will like it better if you strop. You can spend hundreds of dollars on mysterious 32k stones. Strop or don't, your choice. You won't be harming anyone else. Feel free to experiment all you like, if you are not in a hurry to start getting good shaves. Or follow the well trodden path that others have used with success.

If everyone seems dead set on stropping, don't you think maybe there is a reason? It's not because the marketing juggernaut of the greedy capitalistic razor strop megacorporations blitz us with ads and brainwash us relentlessly to buy a strop and use it and wear it out and buy another and another and another. It is because every time someone has shaved without stropping because he left his strop at home or whatever, he has wished he had a strop. It is because every time someone said to himself, "hey, I wonder what it would be like to shave without stropping", he realized after doing so that it was kind of well, not so smart, and in fact, so not so smart that he maybe even was embarrassed to post about his misadventures. Believe me, EVERYTHING YOU CAN IMAGINE IN YOUR WILDEST DREAMS regarding shaving has been tried. What remains and becomes part of standard procedure is what works.

Playing "devil's advocate" will not get your face well and comfortably shaved. It will only distract you. But whatever.

 

[rs_776]

GD 208 is what I started on. It shaves quite well, but doesn't hold an edge very long IME. The geometry on them is somewhat inconsistent, so they can be challenging to hone for a noob.

If you are going the Gold Dollar route, buy it from Slash McCoy or from Strike Gold Shave. They will give you a truly shave-ready razor, and if necessary, correct some of the issues that they often have with their geometry from the factory.

 

[Levue]

Start with films first, just to have the hang of it.
You may never need to buy a stone.

 

[Raymondmillbrae]

Well, I may as well wrap this thread up.

long story short:

I won a Tony Miller strop, so I committed to purchase a straight razor.

Purchased a nice straight razor soon afterwards. (See post #11 above).

Started reading, reading, reading. Asking questions, questions, questions...and...

...and...

...and...

Well...I said, “What the heck? Buy once, cry once”.

And I just purchased a pair of 8k and 12k Naniwa S2-series super stones. (The thicker 20mm ones).

Done. Hecho. Finito.

Now I’ll build a nice wooden holder for the Naniwa stones.

If I need anything coarser for whatever reason, I’ll use lapping film.

Thanks for all the words and encouragement.

Who would’ve thought that winning a strop would have ended-up costing me almost $200 for a straight razor, and almost $200 in stones.

I’m sure you’ll see me around, asking more questions. Like how do you close a sliced-open face wound? Or how do you calm the wifey down when she sees the cc bill?

First world problems.

Thanks again

 

[camoloc]

Well, I may as well wrap this thread up.

long story short:

I won a Tony Miller strop, so I committed to purchase a straight razor.

Purchased a nice straight razor soon afterwards. (See post #11 above).

Started reading, reading, reading. Asking questions, questions, questions...and...

...and...

...and...

Well...I said, “What the heck? Buy once, cry once”.

And I just purchased a pair of 8k and 12k Naniwa S2-series super stones. (The thicker 20mm ones).

Done. Hecho. Finito.

Now I’ll build a nice wooden holder for the Naniwa stones.

If I need anything coarser for whatever reason, I’ll use lapping film.

Thanks for all the words and encouragement.

Who would’ve thought that winning a strop would have ended-up costing me almost $200 for a straight razor, and almost $200 in stones.

I’m sure you’ll see me around, asking more questions. Like how do you close a sliced-open face wound? Or how do you calm the wifey down when she sees the cc bill?

First world problems.

Thanks again

welcome to the rabbit hole.....

camo

 

[global_dev]

Well...I said, “What the heck? Buy once, cry once”.

Thats the spirit!

 

[Raymondmillbrae]

Funny story.

I was chillaxing with the wifey today (it was her day off), and I told her that if she REALLY liked it, I would purchase her a beautiful, crazy kewl, Mongolian print from an artist in Mongolia. (It would be shipped from Mongolia).

It is a $1,500 print that would look outstanding in our living-room, on the right side of the sliding glass door that leads to the backyard.

The print would immediately be seen upon entering the front door to our house.

She was super happy, and this husby got mucho snuggles and hugs.

A little later I “subtly” mentioned that I got myself a few stones to sharpen knives.

She knows I’m a knife guru and I love sharp steel. (From my bowhunting tips, to custom-made knives, to my EDC knives, to our $100 kitchen knives).

She asked how much. I said a little over $100 dollars. (Actually a tad short of $200...but she didn’t need to know the specifics).

She sighed. (A boy with his toys).

It was water under the bridge, and we continued-on to a different topic.

Who da King?!

 

[camoloc]

Funny story.

I was chillaxing with the wifey today (it was her day off), and I told her that if she REALLY liked it, I would purchase her a beautiful, crazy kewl, Mongolian print from an artist in Mongolia. (It would be shipped from Mongolia).

It is a $1,500 print that would look outstanding in our living-room, on the right side of the sliding glass door that leads to the backyard.

The print would immediately be seen upon entering the front door to our house.

She was super happy, and this husby got mucho snuggles and hugs.

A little later I “subtly” mentioned that I got myself a few stones to sharpen knives.

She knows I’m a knife guru and I love sharp steel. (From my bowhunting tips, to custom-made knives, to my EDC knives, to our $100 kitchen knives).

She asked how much. I said a little over $100 dollars. (Actually a tad short of $200...but she didn’t need to know the specifics).

She sighed. (A boy with his toys).

It was water under the bridge, and we continued-on to a different topic.

Who da King?!

that leaves plenty of wiggle room for future purchases too!!!!!

camo

 

[Tedolph]

Funny story.

I was chillaxing with the wifey today (it was her day off), and I told her that if she REALLY liked it, I would purchase her a beautiful, crazy kewl, Mongolian print from an artist in Mongolia. (It would be shipped from Mongolia).

It is a $1,500 print that would look outstanding in our living-room, on the right side of the sliding glass door that leads to the backyard.

The print would immediately be seen upon entering the front door to our house.

She was super happy, and this husby got mucho snuggles and hugs.

A little later I “subtly” mentioned that I got myself a few stones to sharpen knives.

She knows I’m a knife guru and I love sharp steel. (From my bowhunting tips, to custom-made knives, to my EDC knives, to our $100 kitchen knives).

She asked how much. I said a little over $100 dollars. (Actually a tad short of $200...but she didn’t need to know the specifics).

She sighed. (A boy with his toys).

It was water under the bridge, and we continued-on to a different topic.

Who da King?!

Sometimes, I am glad that I am not married.

 

[David]

Sometimes, I am glad that I am not married.

It’s not as bad as it sounds. The key to a successful marriage is to have a PayPal account that your wife doesn’t know about.

 

[Raymondmillbrae]

Sometimes, I am glad that I am not married.

My wifey is actually my best friend in the world.

Wonderful wife who completes me, awesome sister and daughter, incredible mother.

I know it probably sounds weird how I explained the above situation, about me softening my purchasing of two sharpening stones for $200.

But if the truth be told, I can purchase anything I want. I just knew that she would get...ummm...”frustrated,” hearing that I spent that much on two stones. She doesn’t understand some of my “guy hobbies” - like climbing, bouldering, bowhunting, 3-Gun competitor (rifle, shotgun, pistol), reloading, knife-making, woodworking, motorcycles, brewing bier, leather carving, stained glass, etc).

Ive been into a lot of crafts and hobbies before we met and married 12-years ago. So I understand she doesn’t understand many of the things I do, or the tools they take.

Honestly...I didn’t even want to see her “roll her eyes, or even “sigh” when I mentioned my purchase.

Long story short, marriage is a great thing when you wait and find the right woman.

It’s give-and-take. But her input is highly regarded, and sought after, by this new SR shaver.