Could you pick the finisher in a blind test?

[Tomo]

There’s a lot of discussion on these boards. about the pros and cons of different finishers. Different types of stone are said to impart a unique combination of cutting power, shaving comfort and face feel onto a finished edge. My experience with freshly honed edges falls broadly in line with the general accepted wisdom on the various stone types. When I know what the finisher was!

It all starts getting a little hazy when I pick up a random razor out of my rotation. I could almost certainly identify a Jnat or a diamond pasted edge visually with magnification. The others would be an educated guess. By feel alone, with an indeterminate number of shaves on the edge, I’m not so sure anymore. I could tell you if it’s a good edge. I could tell you if it needed a touchup. But I don’t think that I could tell you which stone it last saw.

How would you go? Could you pick the finisher in a blind test by feel alone?

 

[Christian1212]

Would say most of the time. I can always tell what edge my razors have but that's because it is either awesome coticule, awesome jnat, or 20k synthetic edge. All 3 will give me a different aftershave feel.

If I got a random edge I want to say I would definitely know if it was synthetic or natural. Arks are pretty easy to separate from the rest as well. Would be hard though determining if an edge was say thuri, or other slate. I could see another jnat edge fooling me depending on where it was at in the finishing range.

Someone had a blind edge test somewhere with interesting results. They thought my coticule edge with oil was a method edge which was interesting. The razors were a sort of random mix though.

Quick edit: I don't have much experience with film and pasted edges so they could Maybe confuse me on the synthetic side

 

[Tomo]

Would say most of the time. I can always tell what edge my razors have but that's because it is either awesome coticule, awesome jnat, or 20k synthetic edge. All 3 will give me a different aftershave feel.

If I got a random edge I want to say I would definitely know if it was synthetic or natural. Arks are pretty easy to separate from the rest as well. Would be hard though determining if an edge was say thuri, or other slate. I could see another jnat edge fooling me depending on where it was at in the finishing range.

Someone had a blind edge test somewhere with interesting results. They thought my coticule edge with oil was a method edge which was interesting. The razors were a sort of random mix though.

Quick edit: I don't have much experience with film and pasted edges so they could Maybe confuse me on the synthetic side

It’s possible that I have too many stones. Picking the difference between two or three may be a more achievable.

 

[lloydw]

I am pretty hopeful I could distinguish between synthetic or natural. For me, that is 12 or 16k - no 20’s or 30’s in my hoard.
maybe the coticule could be distinguished within my naturals because I cannot get that edge as keen/sharp.
similarly, I like to think I could tell if it was a jnat vs synthetic.
however, since i have found arks - I now use these after everything and when that works, I am sure I could pick that out.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

My own? Probably. Ark edges are unmistakable but my other edges can vary in personality depending on how I approach the stone. Synths are usually pretty obvious too but I couldn't tell you which synth. Other people's edges? Don't have a ton of experience there but synth vs. natural is still pretty apparent.

 

[Wid]

I doubt I could. Maybe the difference in a coti edge and a high grit synth.

 

[Gamma]

I've picked the finisher on a few edges honed by others correctly, also picked the bevel setter on occasion.
I don't think it means anything to be honest, it's just shaving/honing. Either the blade shaves well or it does not.
If it shaves well - it shaves well, what it was finished on isn't all that important. Knowing how it was honed doesn't help me shave better.
But yeah, there has been a lot of chatter about how this or that stone is, in a very finite sense as if the person using that stone has no effect on the final outcome. That the stone creates the edge on it's own, without influence. All the while totally obviating the ground work behind the finish as if that doesn't matter. There are too many wizards in this soup, to be honest.

It is possible to get many different results when many different people are using many different stones many different ways.

 

[Loner16]

I agree with Wid!

For me, a definite, maybe, but I'd probably be wrong as often as right.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yea, probably not.

For the last several years all my edges have been Jnat and Ark edges. No reason to try anything else again, did all that years ago.

 

[Legion]

Maybe, with a large margin for error. A Tam edge feels to me like a good coticule edge, for example.

Also a stone might feel different if used with water Vs oil, for example.

 

[Jakebullet]

It’s a good question.
If the answer is no then what use was it buying the different finishing stones?
But then I suppose the experience of using them and unlocking their performance may just be it’s own reward.
Of my own collection (1 Coticule, 1 Jnat, two Welsh slates, one black Arkansas, pasted balsa strops and pack of films) I’d say the most recognisable would maybe be the coticule.
I’d expect it to feel extremely smooth yet not as keen as its brothers.
The slate edges would feel about perfect, very sharp and very easy cutting with an amazingly soft post shave feel.
My jnat is similar but the edge would feel a little stingier on the finish.
The balsa edge would be easy to recognise, it would be sensationally sharp and easy cutting especially atg on the top lip but would somehow feel ‘hard’ and my post shave would be great but not perfect. Plus I’d have to change my technique to avoid cuts.
The films would have a similar result and feel to the diamond just not as crazy sharp feeling and a little stingier.
The Arkansas stone seems to hit the best of all worlds. Exceptionally sharp like the balsa, extremely comfortable like the slate.
If god made a stone just for me this is probably it though maybe the Welsh slate too, my piece of that is just brilliant for me.

I use them all in different ways. And this is where the honing experience plays a part as we all know it’s not just a shaving edge that matters otherwise we’d all be using CrOx paste
My favourite to hone on is oil on the black ark. So slick and velvety.
Next is the jnat with its great yellow slurry and 400 million year old scent.
Next is the hard slate and coti under running water.
The films on acrylic block would be next and my least favourite to use are the diamond balsa strops.
They probably produce the sharpest, most crazy edge but I personally find them finicky to hold in the air by their ends and I really have to concentrate to keep the pressure as low as required.

Then there’s the looks,
That solid black Ark is probably the most beautiful,
The kiita jnat is next and is a real looker when it’s wet
The Sandy coticule is very pretty, as is the slate as it’s purple and almost black when wet.
The films hold the water like little drops of perspiration and the balsa is understated, just looks like light wood but it hides its great secret in plain sight.

 

[Brutus]

If I hadn’t used a finisher then I would notice, just as I would notice if I hadn’t stropped a razor after honing.
As I like to keep things simple, that’s all there is to this question as far as I am concerned.

I have enough stones (from 1,000 to 20,000 grit) to go from setting the bevel to finishing, but I have only one finisher. That‘s all I need.

The question for me is with what stone (12,000, 8,000, or even down to 5,000?) to start when I touch-up a razor.
No need to make things overly complicated and I strictly look at a stone as a tool, not as a collector’s item that I marvel at.


Blame it on my lack of sophistication, if you like…



B.

 

[cotedupy]

Highly doubt it.

There's a huge amount of confirmation bias involved when looking at stuff like this.

 

[2bit_collie]

I said “no”. To me there is more than just the finisher. For example recently I started using a coticule followed by a black Ark. Very different result than a hard Ark followed by a black Ark. But can I tell the difference between a black Ark followed by a “Method” finish and a coticule, followed by a black Ark. I don’t think I can, they both feel sharp and comfortable. And almost any edge, if maintained by 0.1u diamond pasted balsa, eventually feels sharp and smooth.

 

[Steve56]

I’ll disagree to some extent.

1. You have to be accomplished at SR shaving to tell the difference in fine edges.
2. You have to be experienced with high end hones, synthetic and natural. They’re high end for a reason.
3. High end naturals are expensive, so if you want the best Eschers, JNats, Cotis, etc, that cost removes some folks, including me.

I can not tell much difference between best of class edges from best of class stones. ‘Best of class’ is an important term.

So if you are wanting a stone to make a large difference in your shaving edge, you might want to reconsider.

 

[Southbound1]

I’ll disagree to some extent.

1. You have to be accomplished at SR shaving to tell the difference in fine edges.
2. You have to be experienced with high end hones, synthetic and natural. They’re high end for a reason.
3. High end naturals are expensive, so if you want the best Eschers, JNats, Cotis, etc, that cost removes some folks, including me.

I can not tell much difference between best of class edges from best of class stones. ‘Best of class’ is an important term.

So if you are wanting a stone to make a large difference in your shaving edge, you might want to reconsider.

I agree ^^! Not saying i can do this everyday, (but i sometimes hold my mouth just right a fully executed nat or synth, honed properly should both give very little 'edge feel' difference. I mean in a nutshell, if you dot every 'i' and cross every 't' and lay down a good clean bevel , and refine it without overdoing it, both should give a comfy not so harsh shave. Coti edges i don't think i have tried, but @Doc226 said if you ever want an amazing coti edge, Gary Haywood is the man! I wish he didn't live so far away. From what i have read coti edge, from a good coti can be very keen 'laser like' but still comfy (think jnat) The problem is the very very rare (top razor grade) ones are beyond my pay grade. I also bet Sham aka hibudgl can lay down a good coti edge, he has some top tier stones, and he's a top tier honer as well. Never shaved his edges, but i just know his edges are on point. I have learned a lot from him and also these other gentleman i consider friends Gary, Doc226, Steve56, Alx Gilmore, Eric/Ekretz , Bluesman/Victor. Hell i will even give credit were its due (he does have 'the chop's' of being an accomplished honer) and mentioned Jerrod at the superior shave (even though he doesn't like me for some reason!?) i could go on and on. Really we can learn from anyone at any skill level,(laymen or pro) we just have to keep an open mind.

Now i do think an experienced straight shaver and honer could tell the difference between say a mellow Jnat edge vs a crisper one. But still there is a very fine line between the two. When we hone on Jnats we go by feel, meaning how high we can finish, consistency of slurry etc. Lots of variables with Jnats IME, hardness steels, thinness or thickness of the grind. Also hardness of stone, imo i am liking softer jnat a lot here lately (thanks to Steve) Whenever i start honing on a jnat i dont usually plan on finishing one way or the other, the feedback i get from the steel and stone tells me when to stop. Even finishing with a wisp of slurry you can still 'over-hone' and edge, so very thin (dirty bucket rain/dirty gutter water consistency) 'almost clear water' . So to me i cant tell much of a difference between dirty bucket rain water and Clear water 10-15 strokes . But whenever you start going above 25 laps on a 5++ fine 'grit rich' hard jnat you will definitely over do it if you are not careful, and that edge will be too fragile for longevity, and comfort.

 

[JPO]

I can not tell much difference between best of class edges from best of class stones. ‘Best of class’ is an important term.

If someone asked me five years ago I would probably have a different opinion.
Now I feel the differences are minor.
I recently did a comparison with different razors.
One Les latneuses coticule edge, a jnat edge and a shapton pro 30k. The synthetics edge was also tested using 0.1 micron on balsa after the 30k.
The biggest difference was the post shave feel.
Those minor differences are probably easier to detect the first shave. After 5 to 10 shaves on each edge I would struggle to tell the difference.
Those minor differences are really important, to me at least.

I also discovered along the way in my jnat journey that my holy grail jnat is a Lv 4.5 stone that is ridiculously fine. I think this was more luck, because the stone cost half as much as a so called collector grade Nakayama I have. I could definitely tell the differences between these edges. One is not better then the other, just different.

 

[Southbound1]

If someone asked me five years ago I would probably have a different opinion.
Now I feel the differences are minor.
I recently did a comparison with different razors.
One Les latneuses coticule edge, a jnat edge and a shapton pro 30k. The synthetics edge was also tested using 0.1 micron on balsa after the 30k.
The biggest difference was the post shave feel.
Those minor differences are probably easier to detect the first shave. After 5 to 10 shaves on each edge I would struggle to tell the difference.
Those minor differences are really important, to me at least.

I also discovered along the way in my jnat journey that my holy grail jnat is a Lv 4.5 stone that is ridiculously fine. I think this was more luck, because the stone cost half as much as a so called collector grade Nakayama I have. I could definitely tell the differences between these edges. One is not better then the other, just different.

I agree about the softer Jnats being great if they're razor grade!! I think Steve said Takeshi said a stone thats finer than its given hardness, he (Takeshi) calls this 2% stones. I have a stone i dont know the mine or layers, its a (5-) hardness , but fineness and speed are 5++ , or more, imo. Its a special stone. I never thought i would like a softer Jnat, because hard most of the time equals fine. But the special ones (the one below) that are way finer than its given hardness yield special edges . Same with modern Makawa stamped nagura 'some' of its is farly soft probably lv 3.5 but some of it is blazing fast and very very fine, way finer than its given hardness. I have two pieces a friend gave me one its ungraded, and the other is graded modern. The are both pure white komo with no molten black spots. I tell you the ungraded piece is like it was mined and cut right beside the graded peice, because they are identical in performance and fineness.

I have learned not to judge a stone by its hardness . Lots of hard stones make useful paperweights, not all some are 'grit rich '(as Alx G would say) I do have a very very hard Kiita ( in the photo) tomo nagura thats harder than dammit, (5++) but its full of rich fine and fast grit. I learned this from my pal @Steve56 All i do is keep the tomo deglazed with a brown biscuit Naniwa 600 nagura, i also like to keep my base stones deglazed (with a king 1k i made a nagura out of) and at a matte finish with a knap . Keep hard stones and tomos deglazed and they will perform at their peak. Makes using hard stones so much easier, and pleasurable.

 

[cotedupy]

1. You have to be accomplished at SR shaving to tell the difference in fine edges.
2. You have to be experienced with high end hones, synthetic and natural. They’re high end for a reason.

These points probably sum it up quite well I think.

For someone who’d been using straights and honing them for a number of years, whose technique in both was sufficient to largely cut down on extraneous variables: Then I imagine given two identical razors they had honed, but on different stones - they probably would have a decent chance of picking stuff a reasonable amount of the time.

And that holds for most types of sensory perception tests. In blind wine tastings for example - I would do better than the majority of people, in a statistically significant way.

One other thing to note obviously is that there are different types of blinding. If you gave me two identical razors and told me one came off a coti and the other off an ark, then I might have a reasonable chance of saying which was which. If you gave me the same two razors but an option of 10 finishing stones, I’d be extremely unlikely to get them both correct.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I did a little messing around yesterday with a stone I know fairly well and one I don't, and while the shave test this morning wasn't blind in any way, if it had been, I would have absolutely guessed wrong.