Coticule "Seconds"

[Barbash]

I am looking to buy my first Coticule, but I have a question. I see some Coticules listed for much less that are labeled seconds.
I understand what the term second means, but I was wondering if I should spend the extra money on a "regular" Coticule or save the money and buy a "second"?
Also, should I go a head and pick up a Diamond Stone(i was looking at the DMT Dia-Sharp 8" Diamond Stone) for lapping the Coticule?

Thanks.

 

[Chimensch]

You don't need to spend money on a DMT just to lap a coticule. The coticule laps very nicely with wet/dry abrasive paper on a flat surface, like a glass table top, and you won't need to lap it again for a long time. You don't lap a coticule anywhere near as frequently as a synthetic hone. Another one of its advantages, no soaking and infrequent lapping.

I can't advise you on the "seconds" part of your question.

 

[azmark]

It doesn't matter if you have seconds. Bart has some excellent information here

Save yourself the money. You don't use the cotucles for SOTD shots

 

[Barbash]

Thanks for the replies.

The seller has his Seconds listed with this description...
"These stones are seconds. These have one or more cracks across them, but still have about a full 4 inches by 2 inches of usable area available for honing. "

 

[Chimensch]

Thanks for the replies.

The seller has his Seconds listed with this description...
"These stones are seconds. These have one or more cracks across them, but still have about a full 4 inches by 2 inches of usable area available for honing. "

4" is too short for me.

 

[azmark]

Thanks for the replies.

The seller has his Seconds listed with this description...
"These stones are seconds. These have one or more cracks across them, but still have about a full 4 inches by 2 inches of usable area available for honing. "

I looked into getting a new coticule to replace my 4x2 and looked at Vintage Blades "seconds" also. You can use the entire 6x2 on it. IMO if you could only use a 4x2 they would have cut it into a 4x2.

I'm sure Bart will chime in soon to shed some light on this good question.

 

[bazwalk]

In my humble opinion these stones are just about ok for touch ups, but one of the joys of coticules is their vertsitality. Many people use them for edge refining and some for bevel setting, 4in is just too short for this.
Unless you can get a good price I feel you would be better off with a decent barber hone.

 

[Bart]

I looked at the description at Vintage Blades, and it appears to me they're calling Ardennes Coticule's standard grade "seconds". As far as I know, Ardennes doesn't sell hones with surface cracks. This is the very reason why irregularly shaped "bouts" exist: imperfections are always trimmed off.
Yet many Coticules carry fine black lines (a manganese deposit, common in many of the very best Coticule layers). These lines often look like cracks, but they are not. If I visit the quarry, I'm always looking for these black lines, because experience has taught me that these hones geberally are fast and easily deliver peak results. Manganese plays an important role in the formation of spessartine crystals (the unique abrasive garnets in Coticules). Traces of leftover manganese seem to be a sign of abundant garnet presence.
Many of these lovely Coticules with black lines used to be sold as standard grade, at a discount, because many customers want only hones that appear cosmetically perfect. These are sold as "select grade". As more people start to realize that these line are a sign of quality rather than a "defect", I notice a slow shift in the designation of standard vs select.

Best regards,
Bart.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Oh, awesome info. I assumed the dark vein was a bit of blue stone that got in there, but it's Manganese you say... cool beans.

 

[huracan]

So I bit the bullet and ordered one of these "seconds", I got it today. The yellow side has a few specs of what I assume are the manganese deposits Bart talks about and also a very faint crack that was circled in pencil at some point. It is a full 150x50 mm in size and I do believe it can be used fully. Compared to the coti I already had (125x40) which has a mottled appearance, the new one has a sort of grain to it and is lighter in color.

Take a look, the new one on the left:




Now, here is the surprise. If you noted me talking about the yellow side, it is because this particular rock turned out to be a natural combo .



The BBW side though, does have a couple of nice cracks towards one corner that have been cemented back or at least it appears to be so, the "filler" looks very similar to what my older, smaller coti is affixed to it's slate backing. Gut feeling tells me it would not be a good idea to let a blade touch that corner with the cracks (because of the filler). What do you guys think? I have gotten great results with my lil' coti, but I have no experience with a BBW.

So a big collective thank you for pointing me to this, the gamble paid off and I got a great buy and Vintage (as always) was a pleasure to deal with.

 

[Chimensch]

I have two combo stones, one a natural and one a vintage that is glued together. I get good results using the BBW with slurry and the yellow with water on the theory that the BBW with slurry leaves a sharper edge than the yellow side with slurry. I'd like to hear what Bart says about that because I think I got the idea from him.

 

[danjared]

doh, they're out now. Oh well, I didn't need another coti anyway...

 

[azmark]

doh, they're out now. Oh well, I didn't need another coti anyway...

I just ordered a second.

It's bad luck to have an odd number of coti's in the home. Bad feng shuay

 

[Bart]

That Coticule on the left is from the "La Petite Blanche" Layer. These are nearly always natural combos, because it's a very narrow layer, of which only one stone can be cut. It can be easily recognized by a pale color and the very typical blue line running halfway through the Coticule part. (it is a thin section of BBW). Often a few faint manganese lines are present. "La Petite Blanche" has always been recognized as one of the very best layers. In the old days, mining pits that had access to "La Petite Blanche" were said to pay for the investment, by the harvesting of that layer only (so all other accessed layers were pure profit). It's a very consistent layer: every La Petite Blanche I ever tested performed within the same narrow range. They're quite fast on slurry, and have still decent power to further refine the edge on water only. The edges are on the smoother side of the Coticule spectrum (all Coticule edges are smooth, but I discern between "crispy" smooth, which leaves my skin all nicely rejuvenated, with just a mild tingling sensation on the alum rub; and "butter" smooth, which leaves my skin as if I haven't shaved at all (except for being BBS) without any sensation from the alum block at all. A "La Petite Blanche" Coticule is typically able to deliver edges on the smoother side.
Because of the blue line and the manganese lines, a lot of La Petite Blanches are sold as "standard" grade (or "seconds", in this particular case), which is quite funny, considering how easy it is to get premium results and considering that these were sold in the highest price categories in the heydays of the Coticule industry.
There's one thing I have to warn you for: La Petite Blanches score more than average for "slurrydulling". This means that the on a given density of the slurry the edge will max out on a corresponding keenness level. Never allow slurry to become any thicker than skimmed milk on this one, because the "slurrydulling" will be off scale, and you won't even be able to shave arm hair. The hone is plenty fast with this "skimmed milk" slurry, and easily matches the speed of a 1K synthetic.
As soon as the bevel is ready to be refined, slowly dilute the slurry, 2 drops of water at a time. Stay on it for a while to allow the edge to catch up with the new, improved "slurrydulling" level, before diluting once more. Keep repeating this and allow the edge to follow all the way till you're honing on water only. (the water will be dirty and smell like blood, caused by present steel debris. This is ok).
At that point, the hone will feel quite differently, less abrasive in a way. Rinse everything well and finish with 50 laps on clear water. I call this method "Dilucot". It sounds easy, but it will require practice. There are other ways to get the same results, yet I can't put my entire website in one post..
The BBW side typically displays a lot less of the "slurrydulling" effect, that's why many find it easier to hit good keenness on the BBW. A "La Petite Blanche" demands for a pretty precise and careful dilution phase. Never allow the slurry to fluctuate in density a lot. (That's why I don't recommend a spray bottle in combination with Coticules. Just use a small bowl with clear water and your fingers to sprinkle water). A BBW is less critical for this aspect.

Have fun discovering this great stone and congratulations on a great buy,

Bart.

 

[huracan]

This side of smooth? smell of blood? Petit Blanche? *faint*

Bart, 'thank you for that info!' just does not convey it well enough. I almost feel like going off to dull all my razors just to start checking it out. I have used the Dilucot method with my lil' coti and was very happy with the results, so since I have the chance, thank you as well for the amount of help (and the effort it has taken) to share and put together a great site.

I'm psyched! Excellent find for 50 bucks.

That Coticule on the left is from the "La Petite Blanche" Layer. These are nearly always natural combos, because it's a very narrow layer, of which only one stone can be cut. It can be easily recognized by a pale color and the very typical blue line running halfway through the Coticule part. (it is a thin section of BBW). Often a few faint manganese lines are present. "La Petite Blanche" has always been recognized as one of the very best layers. In the old days, mining pits that had access to "La Petite Blanche" were said to pay for the investment, by the harvesting of that layer only (so all other accessed layers were pure profit). It's a very consistent layer: every La Petite Blanche I ever tested performed within the same narrow range. They're quite fast on slurry, and have still decent power to further refine the edge on water only. The edges are on the smoother side of the Coticule spectrum (all Coticule edges are smooth, but I discern between "crispy" smooth, which leaves my skin all nicely rejuvenated, with just a mild tingling sensation on the alum rub; and "butter" smooth, which leaves my skin as if I haven't shaved at all (except for being BBS) without any sensation from the alum block at all. A "La Petite Blanche" Coticule is typically able to deliver edges on the smoother side.
Because of the blue line and the manganese lines, a lot of La Petite Blanches are sold as "standard" grade (or "seconds", in this particular case), which is quite funny, considering how easy it is to get premium results and considering that these were sold in the highest price categories in the heydays of the Coticule industry.
There's one thing I have to warn you for: La Petite Blanches score more than average for "slurrydulling". This means that the on a given density of the slurry the edge will max out on a corresponding keenness level. Never allow slurry to become any thicker than skimmed milk on this one, because the "slurrydulling" will be off scale, and you won't even be able to shave arm hair. The hone is plenty fast with this "skimmed milk" slurry, and easily matches the speed of a 1K synthetic.
As soon as the bevel is ready to be refined, slowly dilute the slurry, 2 drops of water at a time. Stay on it for a while to allow the edge to catch up with the new, improved "slurrydulling" level, before diluting once more. Keep repeating this and allow the edge to follow all the way till you're honing on water only. (the water will be dirty and smell like blood, caused by present steel debris. This is ok).
At that point, the hone will feel quite differently, less abrasive in a way. Rinse everything well and finish with 50 laps on clear water. I call this method "Dilucot". It sounds easy, but it will require practice. There are other ways to get the same results, yet I can't put my entire website in one post..
The BBW side typically displays a lot less of the "slurrydulling" effect, that's why many find it easier to hit good keenness on the BBW. A "La Petite Blanche" demands for a pretty precise and careful dilution phase. Never allow the slurry to fluctuate in density a lot. (That's why I don't recommend a spray bottle in combination with Coticules. Just use a small bowl with clear water and your fingers to sprinkle water). A BBW is less critical for this aspect.

Have fun discovering this great stone and congratulations on a great buy,

Bart.

 

[danjared]

I just ordered a second.

It's bad luck to have an odd number of coti's in the home. Bad feng shuay

So you're saying it was you who took the last one?

...only kidding. No hard feelings!

 

[richmondesi]

What a great find on that La Petite Blanche. I have one and it's a real gem.

 

[huracan]

What a great find on that La Petite Blanche. I have one and it's a real gem.

Nice. Paul, do you ever get to use the BBW side at all? It (almost) feels redundant to have it.
I'm wondering if it would work best to use it with slurry after bevel setting but before the dilucot, or after the dilucot but before the yellow side with just water?

 

[gary haywood]

Nice. Paul, do you ever get to use the BBW side at all? It (almost) feels redundant to have it.
I'm wondering if it would work best to use it with slurry after bevel setting but before the dilucot, or after the dilucot but before the yellow side with just water?

I never use the blue nower days. Just yellow for me.

 

[Chimensch]

Nice. Paul, do you ever get to use the BBW side at all? It (almost) feels redundant to have it.
I'm wondering if it would work best to use it with slurry after bevel setting but before the dilucot, or after the dilucot but before the yellow side with just water?

I do the blue with slurry followed by the yellow with water but you could also do the yellow with slurry, blue with slurry followed by the yellow with water.