Coticule and oil
- Thread starter LJS
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I like to use thinned out prorasos lather on them, to where it's almost sudsy, but I have used mineral oil and it is good stuff on coticules.
I've used lather on coticules, and found that it upped the ante over plain water given its cushion. But my coticule edges really picked up when I started using baby oil, which also leaves my coticule smelling nice. Once I'm done, I wash off the coticule with a soapy sponge and rinse it thoroughly. That way it's not leaving oil traces everywhere. Thanks to @cotedupy for the further confirmation about using olive oil. Staying with friends and needing an oil that just about everyone has is exactly the scenario I had in mind.
Do you find oil soaks into the BBW side? This is the reason I don't use it on cotis; because I probably use BBW more than coticules, and I use with water for polishing, so I don't want it oil soaked. I've not figured out a way round this yet.
The coticules I've used with oil have been backed with slate, so I don't know about the BBWs. But it's interesting that you bring them up as in one of the prior posts, someone claimed to prefer a BBW with oil for finishing to a coticule. In wanting to try a coticule with olive oil and maybe grapeseed oil, I have just freshly lapped cleaned up a coticule and a BBW for use (both are 40 mm x 125 mm). In the course of things, I noticed that they both were a little bit absorptive, the coticule being a fracture-layered standard-grade "la verte." So, yeah, their being absorptive might precluded them from travel use, but cleaning them up with a soap and detergent for dish-washing has left them quite clean upon drying. My experience with a few coticules used with oil is that while they are alleged to be non-absorptive, they do absorb a little, in contrast to, say, Vermont slate which is about as impervious as one can get.
Me, I'm after oil use for the finish, not water. But even if the coticule and the BBW are a little bit absorptive, if they clean up with soap and water afterwards, that's fine. Whether or not the BBW in question would go back to water use as before is another matter. I would think it would it would go back to water use, especially if emulsified, but it may remained light charged with oil near the surface. Perhaps the same holds true with a coticule, possibly "improving" its finishing properties as a result
For kicks, I applied some grapeseed oil to the surface of my BBW to see what happens as I write. Over the course of a few minutes, the oil is still all over the surface, rather than having visible areas where the oil has sunken in. So it seems to be somewhat resistant. Now to wash the stone again with soap and water.
Follow-up: Cleaning it reveals that the surface holds some oil, as a greasy film was revealed in wiping it off with a dish towel. Washing it also revealed what I already know, that this BBW is riddled with fissures, which became quite visible during clean-up as they were holding oil. That said, a stone like this probably benefits from oil rather than water, to dampen things and hold the fissures in check. Perhaps not a stone for washing. Just leave it oiled and wipe it down with a rag afterwards.
Further on: Upon initial drying, the sides are marked with the trace of oil near the surface I coated. So it's safe to conclude that the BBW is carrying oil after cleaning.
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As with all of these things it's presumably a matter of: some BBW are more absorptive than others, but I've generally found that it seems to sink in more than it does on the coti side. And your testing today seem to confirm that!
This is the reason that BBW is one of the few things I've never really properly tried with oil. Though it doesn't surprise me that doing so would make it a better razor stone. My hunch would be that oil decreases their friability/cutting on slurry, and makes the stone finer for use on razors.
It is however (imo) a criminal waste, like using Uchigumori to shine your shoes
... BBW is, slightly surprisingly, one of the world's great kasumi polishing stones. If BBW were Japanese, people would be tripping over themselves to pay huge amounts of money for it. It's also incredibly easy to use for it, but you do need to work with a water slurry. Stones that will finish a razor well are two-a-penny compared to ones that can do this:
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Yes, well, I can understand the preference for using a BBW with water with Japanese knives like that. Being a big fan of ebay AJ's Welsh purple slates used with oil for finishing razors, I had a brief exchange of e-mails with him at one point several years ago. He told me that in Japan the purple slates (presumably used with water and slurried) are very well received for knife sharpening, perhaps for the same reasons you mention with BBWs. Finding Jnats exotic myself, I had to chuckle over the thought of Japanese honing enthusiasts finding the humble Welsh purple slate exotic from their perspective.
I really like a light, watery oil on Coticules. WD40 is so light you can use slurry if needed and dilute for finish.
I get the impression that a lot of Japanese pros / people who sharpen stuff a lot are quite open minded; not particularly prescriptive about a stone's origin, and don't necessarily think jnats are always the be-all and end-all.
A friend of mine lived in Japan for about 6 months, and slightly randomly got some part time work sharpening kanna and chisels. Apparently they regarded hard Arkansas stones as the very best for that purpose.
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I've remember you saying before that you rated Welsh Purple slates very highly. And it doesn't surprise me since I got this one about six months back, almost certainly an old purple Yellow Lake. I don't know if AJ's 'Llyn Melynllyn' is exactly the same type of thing, but it wouldn't surprise me. This is a highly competent razor finisher; very fine, and surprisingly quick for a hard slate.
Those YL stones are really nice, they make for a really nice razor stone. Mine is very fine, thuri fine.
I’ve been playing around with using olive oil on a variety of stones, including my coticule, since getting my Cretan/Turkish oilstone and it works just fine. We all have seen references to Belgian Oilstones.
I haven’t used any type of oil on my Jnat yet but I know that in Japan, professional sharpeners and blade manufacturers use a synthetic, soluble cutting oil for sharpening called Duraron which I have seen used with both synthetic and natural stones.
I used Ballistol for a while on a Thuri and that worked well also.
I haven’t used any type of oil on my Jnat yet but I know that in Japan, professional sharpeners and blade manufacturers use a synthetic, soluble cutting oil for sharpening called Duraron which I have seen used with both synthetic and natural stones.
I used Ballistol for a while on a Thuri and that worked well also.
- Thread starter
- #32
Just be mindful that some oils like olive oil become rancid over time - you don’t want to leave any remnant of oils that may spoil
I was touching up a couple razors on my ark last night, using WD40 and decided to try a couple other razors on my coti bout with WD40 for the heck of it. Both of them were shaving ok, one had an ark finish but probably needed more work, the other had been finished on the coti with water and had one shave on it, it was pretty good. I was actually really surprised by the results. The coti-finished razor, a thin ground W&B had some immediate rough feedback and then smoothed out. The other one, a pretty hard Soderen, was a little harder to read so I spent some more time on it. I snuck the Soderen into this morning's shave on a few trouble spots and it was a definite improvement in smoothness, not sure about sharpness but it definitely wasn't a step back from the previous edge. I'll have to see how the W&B does, the HHT post stropping was as good as it gets but that doesn't always indicate a pleasant shave with that particular blade.
Cleanup wasn't bad either.
Cleanup wasn't bad either.
In addition to the W&B I decided to try my Herder 49 on the coti with WD40 last night. The Herder was also finished on the coti with water previously and it was nice, not mind blowing but nice.
I shaved with both of them this morning, both were significantly improved but the Herder was a home run.
I shaved with both of them this morning, both were significantly improved but the Herder was a home run.
Oil can be amazing on some coticules. I think people worry too much about bot using water after a coticule becomes "oil only". Just a quick lapping and it is fine. Everytime I have gotten a vintage coticule used with oil all it took was a quick lapping and water was fine.
Has anyone ever come across a vintage coti that came with a slurry stone? I’ve never seen one which makes me think they were more likely to have been used with oil in the past than water.
Use with oil, water, or lather have been the collective instructions on pretty much every vintage coti that I've seen. Never seen or heard of a vintage that came with a slurry stone.
I started using oil with both my coticule and my belgian blue. I mainly did that because I use a combination of Belgian stones and Arkansas stones (soft Ark->Belgian blue->coticule->Black Ark) and I found it convenient to not have to switch between oil and water and back again. However, I was recently struggling to hone a circa 1950 near-wedge meat cleaver that had been severely rusted. I just could not get it all the way sharp. I finally decided to try the Belgian stones with water (washed them with dish soap to remove most of the oil, then resurfaced with a diamond hone to remove the sheen) and WOW the result was incredible. I quickly turned this stubborn blade into a great shaver.
Now of course this was the second pass across the whole process, so it's not a conclusive test, since a second pass with oil might have succeeded as well. But here's my hypothesis: while the oil does work, it reduces the degree of contact between blade and abrasive, so if nothing else it just takes longer to achieve the same effect. The oil also reduces the tactile feedback so you have to keep stopping and checking to see the progress. Maybe the oil I was using was too thick (grapeseed oil) and maybe I wasn't cleaning it off thoroughly enough between sessions, but I think the stones got slower and slower over time. I think our individual styles and habits play a role as well, so what works for me might not be right for someone else, but I'm 100% devoted to using water on the Belgians now, though I like the fact that I'm no longer just doing that because them's the rules. I'm using water on the Belgians now because I have seen for myself that it's superior (for me, that is). So I think it's a great idea to experiment, and to take the 'rules' with a grain of salt, if only to fully internalize why a given rule exists and why it's a good practice (and whether there are exceptions or alternatives), rather than just blindly obeying the received wisdom (received wisdom is a blessing, I'm not knocking it, but knowing 'why' is value added).
Now of course this was the second pass across the whole process, so it's not a conclusive test, since a second pass with oil might have succeeded as well. But here's my hypothesis: while the oil does work, it reduces the degree of contact between blade and abrasive, so if nothing else it just takes longer to achieve the same effect. The oil also reduces the tactile feedback so you have to keep stopping and checking to see the progress. Maybe the oil I was using was too thick (grapeseed oil) and maybe I wasn't cleaning it off thoroughly enough between sessions, but I think the stones got slower and slower over time. I think our individual styles and habits play a role as well, so what works for me might not be right for someone else, but I'm 100% devoted to using water on the Belgians now, though I like the fact that I'm no longer just doing that because them's the rules. I'm using water on the Belgians now because I have seen for myself that it's superior (for me, that is). So I think it's a great idea to experiment, and to take the 'rules' with a grain of salt, if only to fully internalize why a given rule exists and why it's a good practice (and whether there are exceptions or alternatives), rather than just blindly obeying the received wisdom (received wisdom is a blessing, I'm not knocking it, but knowing 'why' is value added).
For those of you that are opposed to using oil, I have used water soluble Glycerin with good effect on a number of stones. You can use it straight or thin with water. And when you are done, it rinses right off. Not sure it is as good as straight oil, but the clean up is a breeze.
