Christmas on the way. Do I ask for a Shapton 16k?

[Acmemfg]

Been asked what I’m gonna want for Christmas. I have quite a selection of hones. Synthetic, Arkansas, Coticule…everything it seems but a jnat. Tried that, not a fan;
would it be worth it to suggest a nice new 16k Shapton?
Heard much about them. Never tried one.

 

[lightfoot]

From everything that I’ve gathered these stones don’t seem to be intended for straight razors in particular.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

From everything that I’ve gathered these stones don’t seem to be intended for straight razors in particular.

They can be used for straight razors though. I've shaved off Shapton GS 16k a few times without any issues.

 

[Christian1212]

I think I would go with a gok 20k for synthetic or dans surgical black for natural.

 

[JPO]

I have the 0.85 micron G7. This is a really nice finisher.
Is the 16k, 0.92 micron the same stone? I don't know.
The only reason I can think of why this is rated finer is that it has a better particle distribution.
If they are the same I would say it's a good finisher.
It's super fast. So, if you don't use it right you are going to screw up your edge.
I have never done more the 5-10 strokes on it after an 8k.
This stone can easily take your edge past what allot of steel can handle.
Dr Matt did a video about it. I am not able create the issues he had. It's a hard stone, so maybe he lapped it with a too coarse diamond plate.

 

[Herrenberg]

Better particle distribution in the G7 stones would not be a surprise. I'd that being smaller, razors would have been at the top of consideration

In the larger Shapton Glass line, the stones recommended for razors, due to narrower particle distribution than the others, are the 3k, 10K, and 30K.

I've shaved off of the 30K a few times, and its fine, but it does not hold a candle to the Suehiro Gokumyo 20k, or the Suehiro Kouseki 10K, nor to any of my natural finishers.

 

[Gamma]

Shapton left the 16k and 30k off the recommended list because hey acknowledge the need to good technique when using them for that purpose. And I don't think they want to deal with the general public whining about an edge honed for 800 laps on a Norton 8k that didn't come out well on the 16k.
Honestly, it's not for ham fisted honers, it's a fussy stone.

The message, from Shapton, read sort of along the lines of...
"...of course you can use them for razors, if your technique is good. We just don't usually recommend them for that."

Lotta people have honed a lot of good edges with them.

I preferred the 30k. Actually now it's the .44µm G7.
So sometimes I go 10k GS to .44µm G7.

I did not see any difference between the 16k GS and the G7 .85µm.
I am sure the recipe could have been been improved, somehow. To me side by side, handled as identically as I could, they seem to be the same.
For the actual particle size to be listed differently as they are, D50 would have to have changed significantly. Seems a stretch to me but PSD numbers are usually sort of convoluted anyway. They don't actually measure the diameter of the particle.

Plus, gotta remember, these are the same people that sell the same stone as 12k Kuro and a 15k Pro. Maybe the PSD has improved. Maybe they are calculating the particle size differently. Maybe it's all fake news.

 

[JPO]

I am not sure if this Japanese brochure is produced by Shapton, but it definitely is in line with what i see when i use these stones.
According to this the 16k and the 30k is the only stones that have a lower rating with respect to particle distribution.
Why would anyone other then shapton go to the trouble of producing this brochure?
I just honed a razor using my 8k, 16k (0.85 G7), and 30k, and it is in line with what is presented here.

Call it confirmation bias or whatever. Anyone is welcome to present their own findings.

The 30k pro is different, and produce a much better result. So, this stone should not be compared to this chart.

If i was going to pick a stone finer then 8k, i would pick the 10k. If i had the budget for it i would get the 30k pro too.
The jump from 8k to 30k is also quite easy also.

 

[JPO]

i just honed a Bengall razor using my G7 stones.

These images gives a false sense of the scale, because of the orientation of the lens.

After 8k is did 10 rolling x-strokes on the 16k. It is not a big improvement over the 8k. However, you need to shave test this to notice the actual difference. Based on previous shaves off this stone, the shave will be quite good.

Then i took it to my 0.44 (30k). I only did 6 strokes. The result is the same every time. I even tried to skip the 16k, and go right to the 30k after an 8k. The result is the same every time. MY STONE, like the chart from Shapton indicate does contain some larger particles that are problematic. The razor might still shave good after the 30k, and even better then the 16k. This was after only 6 light strokes on a tiny G7 stone. It is probably not more the one or two strokes on a full sized stone. So imagine if you are not careful with the pressure and do 20 strokes.

I have shaved enough times from these types of edges to know that they will not be what i am looking for in an edge. So, i go back to 6k, 8k and then to the shapton pro 30k
The 8k is in my opinion a better jump point to he 30k then the 16k. A 10k stone would be nice to have here instead.

8k edge.

30k Pro edge after 15 strokes, following an 8k. If i had an 10k i would probably do less.
This gives a much cleaner edge then the 0.44 micron G7. There is no random micro chips in the edge.
I have also shaved off this type of edge enough times to say that these types of edges are really nice.

 

[JPO]

For anyone who are interested in the brochure/pamphlet from Shapton(?)

GlassSeries_2008_07_01_ver1.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[Acmemfg]

Thanks for all the input. Think I’ll go back to my LaVeinette coticule. To date that rock produces some of my best edges.

 

[Gamma]

Honestly, high grit synths are usually disappointing to me.
I picked up the Shapton 16k/30k on a lark long ago and never really relied on them as go to stones. Like the Gokumyo stones, they were more of a curiosity than anything else. Plus I had a feeling that the FUD campaign on the 16k from long ago was a farce and wanted to give the situation a first-hand whirl.
Knowing that Shapton's printed materials often contradict themselves, or are just wrong, I went direct to their upper tier staff with some questions; while the email discussions with them proved to be enlightening, I never got on the synth train. But using them did prove to me that the .85 µm G7 and the 15k GS worked fine when used correctly and their limitations weren't exceeded.
But at the end of the day they were just making another high-grit synth edge.
On occasion, I've made nicer edges with some compounds on a hanging linen.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Do you plan to shave off this edge? There are better more proven stones than the 16k. They are great stones for tools but problematic for razors as are most synthetics in the high grit range.

If used solely as a finisher, with just a handful of laps, as few as 2-3 they can finish a razor nicely.

Look at the Suehiro 10k, since I got this stone about a year ago it has replaced my 8k Snow White as a pre-finisher, (near mirror and laser straight edge) before finishing on a Jnat or Ark.

With some Chrome Oxide or CBN, you can easily shave off this stone. It also has a broad range and can easily remove 1k stria to near mirror.

I use my 16k on tools, plane blades and chisels and even then, to make micro-bevels in a few laps, great stone for that.

 

[captaincaed]

Adding a little bit of my experience for posterity. Cross-posting a bit from the ‘what did you hone today’ thread.

————

The 16k is a little vexing. I started using it with chisels this summer, and I felt like my edges were sharp but failing a bit early. Taking a razor to it was similar. Great polish, even more slice than the 8k edge. I've read about how over working the edge can be fairly easy with this stone. After polishing, stropping and cutting a few hairs the edge was chipped. I did 30-40 strokes, apparently too much. Going back to the snow white seemed to mend things. Not sure how this will stack up in the lineup. I'm curious to see how a minimum number of strokes would compare.

 

[Herrenberg]

Adding a little bit of my experience for posterity. Cross-posting a bit from the ‘what did you hone today’ thread.

————

The 16k is a little vexing. I started using it with chisels this summer, and I felt like my edges were sharp but failing a bit early. Taking a razor to it was similar. Great polish, even more slice than the 8k edge. I've read about how over working the edge can be fairly easy with this stone. After polishing, stropping and cutting a few hairs the edge was chipped. I did 30-40 strokes, apparently too much. Going back to the snow white seemed to mend things. Not sure how this will stack up in the lineup. I'm curious to see how a minimum number of strokes would compare.

Interesting. I would guess that the issue is that, like the other SG stones, it's really fast but doesn't feel that way.

Meanwhile, perhaps the best razor post-finisher in the world is the translucent ark, which is an excruciatingly slow stone.

Tentative conclusion: you want a slow stone for a final finisher.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I'd probably start with 5-10 laps on a stone like that.

 

[captaincaed]

It's definitely a fast stone. I think it has potential but needs careful handling. I agree about hard Arks. They're great finishers.

 

[Gamma]

Never needed many strokes on the SG 16k. Like 12-ish. 15-ish.
Never need more than 20 on a 12k either.

At that point, a huge percentage of work was supposed to be done to the 9s. If not, making up for it on the 'finishing' stones never really turns out a quality edge. Really not supposed to need much work there. Slight polish, that's all. Asmittedly, it's a finicky stone. The Rockstar 16k looks good. Bought one, arrived smashed though.

I don't think the Glass Stones are 'exceptionally' fast for what they actually are. The Shapton 1k is 14 µm, the Chosera is markedly finer. They both play very well when we consider what makes them what they're called. Lotta guys get their stones totally saturated during extended sessions and the speeds seem to increase further while refinement levels decrease. It's a wicked teeter-totter.