Blade dings on side of scale

[kayvee]

I bought this razor off ebay - looks great except for one problem. The blade dings on one side of the scale when opening and closing. The blade and the scales are in great condition, it doesn't have much honewear either. It's most likely that the previous owner just let it sit due to this problem of dinging.

Another observation - the hole size on the tang is bigger than the pivot pin. I can move the blade within the scales while it's in the closed position.

Do I need to repin the wedge? It seems to my untrained eye that maybe the wedge is not thick enough relative to the size of the blade.

Alternatively, should I try what @Slash McCoy documented here Size of pin relative to pivot hole - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/size-of-pin-relative-to-pivot-hole.640808/post-12295368

 

[J B Addis]

Let's see some more pics of the issue. If by "ding", you mean that the edge digs or cuts into the scale at some point when closing, the scales are probably just warped. If they're horn or hard rubber, they can be heated (a heat gun is ideal for this, the harbor freight model is just fine) until pliable then bent back to true. If the warp is only slight to moderate, unpinning may not be necessary.

The hole in the tang on old razors is almost always bigger than pin, and was when it came out of the factory, If the blade moves about too easily, or wants to flop open or closed, just peen the pins a little tighter.

 

[kayvee]

Here's a pic that shows where the edge digs into the scale... It shows the blade and the scale at almost the closed position - you should see the effects of repeated closing on the scale.




The blade is able to move side to side when in the closed position. But the blade is tight at the pivot while in the shaving position. What do I mean?

The blade is able to move between the left and the right scale in this position all the way till it closes.



But not from here on till shaving position... Actually, I can feel the scales flex as I open it more.



Hope that explains what I see...

 

[rbscebu]

The "dinging" looks and sounds like a slight warp in the scales. You have two options; try and straighten the scales (with heat?) or pay more attention to the closing of the blade.

As for the pivot pin hole in the shank, most pivot pin shank holes are made oversized. This is often because the hole is drilled/stamped before the blade is heat treated. Heat treatment can do interesting things to a precision hole in steel. If the movement worries you, you can unpin the blade, fill the hole with epoxy weld, redrill the hole (∅1.6mm) near the tail-end of the epoxy filler and then reassemble the razor. I only do that if I am disassembling the razor for some other reason.

The reason why the hole is drilled near the tail-end of the epoxy filler is that, as the filler wears, the blade moves away (not towards) the wedge.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“Do I need to repin the wedge? It seems to my untrained eye that maybe the wedge is not thick enough relative to the size of the blade.

Alternatively, should I try what @Slash McCoy documented here Size of pin relative to pivot hole –“

No. you can adjust/ center the blade tip without unpinning easily.

Looking at your first photo, you can see that the wedge pin is not straight, the right side is closer to the pivot pin than the left.

You can steer the blade centering, by tapping the pins forward or back. Tapping the wedge pin will move the scales and tapping the pivot pin will move the blade.

You do not need to move the scales or blade much to move the tip to centering.

It is also a good reason not to glue in your wedge, you give up a lot of adjustment potential.

Old pivot pin holes were punched not drilled, it does not matter that the hole is oversized, pinned tight it will work just fine, as said.

First tighten the pivot and wedge pins and see if the centering improves or gets worse. Tighten both sides equally with the razor open and closed.

The pivot should be tight through the whole range. Tighten a little and test, it does not take much, resist the urge to hit the pin hard, you will bend it or crack the scales.

If the edge is hitting on the right scale, move the right scale up towards the wedge, by tapping on the bottom of the wedge pin, the part of the pin closest to the pivot pin.

Or move the blade to the left, by tapping on the bottom of the pivot pin, furthest side from the wedge. Here a small 2-ounce peen hammer works well or take a nail set and grind the tip flat, smooth the tip and slightly round/ bevel the sharp corners, now you can pinpoint your strikes with the modified nail set. Tap the pin not the collar. Make small movements and test, a small movement in the pin will move the tip considerably.

The width of the wedge does not matter, as long as the taper of the wedge is the same or close to the taper on the tang at the pivot. Look at large old Sheffield razors with ¼ inch tangs, the lead wedges are thin.

Scales do not appear to be warped, but can be straightened easily with hot water or heat gun as said. Try moving the pins first.

Blade centering can be confusing and counter intuitive, holler if you need a better explanation.

 

[kayvee]

The pictures probably don't show this well - but the scales are near pristine. I don't think they're warped at all. I'll try moving the pins as you suggest.

 

[kayvee]

@H Brad Boonshaft

#1: How do I keep the razor stable while I try to move just the pin relative to the scale?

#2: If I follow your explanation properly, then moving the wedge pin on the right scale upwards should be similar to moving the wedge pin on the left scale downwards. How do we pick one over the other?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Moving the right pin will move the right scale up, where it is hitting. Sometimes you do need to move both pins one up one down, especially if someone has glued one side of the wedge. If both sides of the wedge are glued, you can only move the pivot pin.

Like I said it does not take much pin movement to move the blade tip so try moving the scale, (wedge pin) first, yours appears crooked, and that may be the cause. The wedge pin may be bent.

I pin on a small piece of small gage railroad track with a polished face and an 1/8 divot drilled into one end. I rest the opposite pin in the divot and tap the other pin. Anything with a small hole works, even a piece of wood.

If the pin is bent everything may work the opposite, you will know if the contact with the scale is exacerbated.

 

[kayvee]

In trying to move the right wedge pin upwards (per pic in #1), the washer just broke. The space was tight and I might have accidentally hit the washer - unsure. At any rate here's a pic from that side. How does this change my approach now?

I stopped immediately so as not to make things worse. I could continue to try pushing the pin upwards and see if it solves the original issue.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Did you tighten the wedge pint?

You are ok, the wedge pin does not really need a collar, all the movement opening and closing is at the pivot pin.

You might need to tighten the wedge pin a bit.

You want to tap the pin using a small hammer. You are just tapping the side of the pin. I use a 2-ounce polished ball, hammer for this.

The nail set trick also works well for this, as you can direct the tap without any danger of hitting the collar or scale. You can also make/reshape nail sets in a variety of shapes, domed works best or razors and use the nail sets to peen and to smoothly shape pin heads if you want large/tall pin heads like Case or Robeson pins. There is an excellent video tutorial on the Nick Wheeler website on making raised domed pins on knife handles using modified nail sets.

Peening and adjusting is all about light taps, the material is soft and you want to move the material gently.

 

[Gamma]

Trying to move or bend pins while the razor is assembled is a bad idea.

A few things can cause what you are experiencing.

One is that something has a warp, you might not see it.
Sheffields are notorious for weirdo geometry, for example.
The pivot pin might be loose and bent.
Wedge pins are often set on angles. It might not affect anything.
Pivot pins on angles usually cause issues though.

I would take the razor apart, clean up the blade and scales. Inspect to wedge to be sure it isn't too deformed - it's lead, I think, and if so it is soft and they can squash unevenly. Might cause misalignment of the scales.
Repin the wedge if ok, or replace, and check the fit to the razor. Dry fit a few times.
When reinstalling, consider using thrust washers in the pivot area.

 

[kayvee]

I did end up taking the razor apart today. The pivot pin (brass) was/is compressed such that it won’t even get out of the scales. I think it’s made the pin thicker in places. It was also apparent that the blade was listing to one side. Could it be due to the pin compression? I also see grease buildup. Strange. For all this the scales and blades are in good shape. The blade edge was obviously dinged up where it touched the scales repeatedly.

I’m wondering if I should use nickel pins and washers. It would look better with the black scales anyway.

 

[Gamma]

Good.
Bent pins can cause alignment issues, yes.
Brass or nickel is a personal choice. I use both.

 

[kayvee]

Yikes. Look at the pivot hole on the blade (the left one). That’s what was in there ( pic after cleaning). On the right is another blade for comparison. Could that be part of the problem?

By the way, I dry fit the blade in the scales. The pivot holes on the scales are not aligned (not square). I tried adding a washer on one side to make it centered. It made it better, but not there all the way. Long story short, the scales are uneven (possibly even warped) in addition to everything else going on. I just wasn’t able to make it out with my eyes.

I would need to fill the current holes and redrill the holes in the scales. Or just swap them out.

The razor is not worth that much. It’s just a learning opportunity I suppose


Just for terminology. I used the extra washer on the inside of the scales next to the blade on one side. Is that the thrust washer you referred to?

 

[Gamma]

Yes, inner washers, thrust washer, same.
If the pivot holes are angled, should be re-drilled. If the holes are whacked and the scales are warped, fix the warp first then re-drill. The scales can be evened up, holes fixed, then reassembled.
If the blade is straight then all should be ok. If there is a warp in the grind then things can get juicy.

 

[kayvee]

Does the big uneven hole in the tang matter?

I’ll need to view the scales in daylight and when my eyes are not tired. Right now, I say the scales are not warped. The pivot holes are angled.

How do I fill the scales for redrill? Superglue?

 

[kayvee]

By now I have disassembled the entire razor. I cleaned up the parts and tried a dry fit, put in another (smaller) blade etc... - the problem still remains.

As far as I can see the issue is with the blade itself. Two pictures illustrate the issue. The blade is laid on a flat surface in both instances. See how the toe is flat on one side? That’s the side that hits the scale.

The part of the blade that’s honed seems to be ok to me. I imagine I’d have to grind the tang flat to be in the same plane as the blade. This is beyond my pay grade.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Lots of old Sheffield razors - like Wade & Butchers from the second half of the 19th century - have holes that were punched not drilled. Like the razor in this photo. Does the pivot hole in your Wostenholm look like this?

 

[kayvee]

Yes it does look like that.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Yes it does look like that.

Assuming that Wostenholm punched the pivot hole in your razor, I would let it be and enjoy it for what it is.