Blade Chatter: What Is It and Is it Real?

[NorthernSoul]

@Galaktus

P.S. The Schick blades are also a good design, don't get me wrong. It is just another way of solving the problem using a thicker blade that is inherently more rigid.

Salespeople and commercials tend to want to demonstrate their product is superior, but actually the products are just alternatives that will also work well. It is not enough for them to say "Me, too" they have to say "Ours is clearly better".

 

[Lane101]

Blade chatter is real but not important in my point of view. My Alpa Outlaw chatters like crazy but gives clean, pleasant and comfy shaves. I've used Nodachi has zero chatter and shaves were so rough. I can not judge a razor with its blade rigidity.

What specific symptoms are you describing as chatter such as audible feedback or a rough shave?

 

[gigashadow02]

If you want to experience the ultimate in blade chatter, try shaving against the grain with Muhle R41. I know that razor has been around a long time, but I think it stinks.

 

[anoop]

Henson used to have a video showing the difference between a cartidge razor and their de razor shaving a playing card edge - can't find that one, but here's another shwoing the difference between a Henson and another DE razor with less blade support (I do have a Henson, but have been using only my Tatara Masamune for years now, which also clamps the blade very securely)

Does my skin look that bad under a microscope if I’m not using a Henson?

 

[Jay21]

Clamping force increases the stiffness of the blade. I have an ALlupo with an unclamped blade (probably due to machining variations), and even though it is very small and I used a macro to get a picture of it, I could easily use my fingernail to deform the blade, and when I used him he was very loud and had a chattering sensation that made me feel uncomfortable, and the GC84OC provided a very tight clamping force that was very smooth, and I think that the sound came from two sources, the first one being the sound of the blade chattering against the beard, and the second one being the amplification of the tiny sound by the frame cavity. I think there are two sources of sound, the first is the sound of the blade and the whiskers trembling, the second is the sound of the knife frame cavity amplification of small
View attachment 1843790View attachment 1843791

You may have explained why I don’t care for my aluminum Lupo but like all my stainless Lupos.

 

[tejolot3]

The basic question seems to be this: Is chatter to be defined as {1} skipping erratically along the surface of your skin (such as a drill bit might chatter when it reaches a knot in the wood), or as {2} making a clickety-clack noise (such as your teeth might chatter when you're cold)?

The first definition is one of motion, while the second is one of sound. The latter may or may not be a symptom of the first, or the two may or may not be symptoms of the same root cause.

If chatter is sound, then it could be coming from the blade's contact with your hairs, or it could be coming from within the razor itself, or both. I don't know. But it seems pretty obvious to me that some blades (and blade/razor combos) sound different than others, so it's hard to accept an assertion that blade chatter doesn't exist under that definition of chatter.

If chatter is motion, however, then I have several questions. First, how can you tell how the blade is moving? How can you tell it's skipping along your skin? It seems the most obvious answer would be the results of the shave: there would be spots of poorly shaven stubble. Perhaps weepers/nicks would be another bit of evidence; ideally, any drawn blood would need to be in proximity to a spot of aforementioned poorly shaven stubble. Secondly, how can you tell if it's the fault of the razor design or the fault of your own prep and/or technique. It seems the best answer would be that, to rule out prep, you'd be switching razors partway through the same shave. But, when it comes to technique, there's no real scientific way to account for that: you might have good technique with one razor but poor technique with another.

Anyway, do carry on with the conversation. It's an interesting read.

 

[anoop]

If chatter is motion, however, then I have several questions. First, how can you tell how the blade is moving? How can you tell it's skipping along your skin?

Easy. Record a high frames per second video of the shave using a microscope! Then play in slow motion and analyze.

 

[Galaktus]

The question is not how much force, but where the force is being applied and in which direction.

If you shave a solid block of a material, you get a sliver of material that wedges itself on top of the blade. That tends to push the blade edge down. That is different from the situation when shaving small individual whiskers, which basically fall away as each one is cut.

Whiskers are a different story because they are small individual pieces that can't push the blade down. The cutting force on the blade edge tends to push the blade edge up and inward from the edge. This is the direction that razors such as the R89 are designed to resist best.

When you shave, you're cutting dozens and dozens if not hundreds of whiskers at the same time. Yes, lather and whiskers are not the same as solid bar soap. You get varying degrees of force and tension spread over the edge of the blade.
I prefer thicker blades. When I used to use straights, I preferred wedge (thicker) style over full hollow grinds.

 

[abies]

This thread certainly has been active.

My two cents: I've always thought of blade chatter as vibration in the blade and/or by extension razor itself when shaving. For me personally it hasn't been related to the quality of the shave overall, as I can think of examples in all sorts of directions. Maybe I just haven't run into really severe forms of it though, so maybe I'm not as familiar with it as I assume.

I can see why people would have a preference about it one way or another. On the one hand, more of it provides audio feedback as I think the sounds change with closeness of shave and whatnot; on the other, I think less chatter in general feels "more solid".

 

[Blackland Razors]

The basic question seems to be this: Is chatter to be defined as {1} skipping erratically along the surface of your skin (such as a drill bit might chatter when it reaches a knot in the wood), or as {2} making a clickety-clack noise (such as your teeth might chatter when you're cold)?

The first definition is one of motion, while the second is one of sound. The latter may or may not be a symptom of the first, or the two may or may not be symptoms of the same root cause.

If chatter is sound, then it could be coming from the blade's contact with your hairs, or it could be coming from within the razor itself, or both. I don't know. But it seems pretty obvious to me that some blades (and blade/razor combos) sound different than others, so it's hard to accept an assertion that blade chatter doesn't exist under that definition of chatter.

If chatter is motion, however, then I have several questions. First, how can you tell how the blade is moving? How can you tell it's skipping along your skin? It seems the most obvious answer would be the results of the shave: there would be spots of poorly shaven stubble. Perhaps weepers/nicks would be another bit of evidence; ideally, any drawn blood would need to be in proximity to a spot of aforementioned poorly shaven stubble. Secondly, how can you tell if it's the fault of the razor design or the fault of your own prep and/or technique. It seems the best answer would be that, to rule out prep, you'd be switching razors partway through the same shave. But, when it comes to technique, there's no real scientific way to account for that: you might have good technique with one razor but poor technique with another.

Anyway, do carry on with the conversation. It's an interesting read.

Chatter is the blade flexing away from your desired shave angle. The hair/skin is pulling the blade towards being perpendicular to your skin. It doesn't cut well at this angle so it kind of skips. Then it inevitably snaps back to where it started because of the tension on the blade. That back-and-forth movement is the chatter. It's not specific to razors. Chatter is a big deal in machining when either a tool flexes away from the workpiece, the workpiece flexes away from the tool, or both. The sound is caused by the chatter and is less a specific sound than it is a change in sound. In machining everything sounds consistent and then you'll hear the chatter. Not always louder - just different. You can try this yourself with a kitchen knife on a cutting board. Start with a low angle and drag it across the board perpendicular to the edge (like how you'd shave). It'll sound nice and smooth. Then increase the angle until it skips and chatters. It moves and sounds different.

 

[NorthernSoul]

Chatter is the blade flexing away from your desired shave angle. The hair/skin is pulling the blade towards being perpendicular to your skin. It doesn't cut well at this angle so it kind of skips. Then it inevitably snaps back to where it started because of the tension on the blade. That back-and-forth movement is the chatter. It's not specific to razors. Chatter is a big deal in machining when either a tool flexes away from the workpiece, the workpiece flexes away from the tool, or both. The sound is caused by the chatter and is less a specific sound than it is a change in sound. In machining everything sounds consistent and then you'll hear the chatter. Not always louder - just different. You can try this yourself with a kitchen knife on a cutting board. Start with a low angle and drag it across the board perpendicular to the edge (like how you'd shave). It'll sound nice and smooth. Then increase the angle until it skips and chatters. It moves and sounds different.

If you put a layer of soap and water on the cutting board, the knife will be much less prone to skip and screech.

 

[Blackland Razors]

If you put a layer of soap and water on the cutting board, the knife will be much less prone to skip and screech.

Yea I should mention that I think shaving chatter isn't as big a problem as a lot of people seem to think it is. Partly for that reason.

 

[anoop]

Start with a low angle and drag it across the board perpendicular to the edge (like how you'd shave). It'll sound nice and smooth.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding the terminology, but when looking at shaving pictures or even thinking about how I shave, I think the blade edge is closer to being parallel to the face, rather than perpendicular.

 

[gpjoe]

TL;DR...I'll go back at some point.

I don't equate chatter with sound. To me, it has more to do with blade flex during the shave. The stiffer blades (AC and GEM) seem to cut without hesitation, without tugging or skipping.

With DE (or half DE) it seems that I get far less tugging, skipping, and resistance from some razors vs others...and with all else being equal (same blade, soap, prep, etc), I attribute the difference (right or wrong) to blade clamping.

I've always considered my Timeless 68SCL to be the smoothest razor that I've shaved with to date, and again, I attribute that to clamping.

To be honest, I've not ever had a problem with chatter when shaving my face (other than a bit of discomfort going ATG on my neck, but only with certain razors), but can tell a difference when shaving my head. I've tried and compared a lot of razors on my head and the smoothest shavers (by far, for me) are my razors which utilize stiff blades: Vector (AC) and Predator (GEM), Mossei Mono (injector). Those cut hair like butter.

The only other razor that gets me the same head shave is the Parker Solo Edge, a DE half-blade razor. I can't be certain but this is another case that I attribute to secure blade clamping...with a fresh blade, the Solo Edge never hesitates, which was not the case with my Stomper and others.

Obviously, I can't possibly know for certain why one razor shaves smoother than another, but I know from my personal experience that stiffer blades definitely shave my head more smoothly and without hesitation.

 

[Blackland Razors]

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding the terminology, but when looking at shaving pictures or even thinking about how I shave, I think the blade edge is closer to being parallel to the face, rather than perpendicular.

No you're right. We're describing the same thing. I meant that the direction of motion is perpendicular to the cutting edge. Like draw an arrow where your razor is headed and it'll be perpendicular to the edge of your blade. Probably over-explained and made it sound more complicated than just "drag is across like shaving".

 

[ErkRusselReserve]

Chatter is the blade flexing away from your desired shave angle. The hair/skin is pulling the blade towards being perpendicular to your skin. It doesn't cut well at this angle so it kind of skips. Then it inevitably snaps back to where it started because of the tension on the blade. That back-and-forth movement is the chatter. It's not specific to razors. Chatter is a big deal in machining when either a tool flexes away from the workpiece, the workpiece flexes away from the tool, or both. The sound is caused by the chatter and is less a specific sound than it is a change in sound. In machining everything sounds consistent and then you'll hear the chatter. Not always louder - just different. You can try this yourself with a kitchen knife on a cutting board. Start with a low angle and drag it across the board perpendicular to the edge (like how you'd shave). It'll sound nice and smooth. Then increase the angle until it skips and chatters. It moves and sounds different.

This is great info. There are Gillette slow motion close up videos on youtube (including a really awesome one I can't find right now) of blades shaving. They are pushing the Fusion/Proglide which have extremely rigid blades due to being folded at 90 degrees. You can clearly see the skin bouncing around as hair is being pulled and cut, there are alot of forces pushing the razor in different directions including vertically off the skin. A blade that is not engineered for rigidly can lead to issues. DE blades are made of spring steel and thus spring around.

I got very weird pigmenting cuts from a Leaf Twig. The corners of the blade are completely unsupported, they move freely both up and down. I think the unsupported nature of the corners is what got me. These were not knicks, but random cuts. If anyone has a Twig, my advice is to stop using it. If you like fixed angle half blades razors, I have found the Soledge to be more than a better replacement and it is engineered for safety.

If the top cap of the Twig had T shaped wings to support the blade, if would likely be a much safer design, but Leaf chose form over function and now I am scarred.

 

[Lockback]

I got very weird pigmenting cuts from a Leaf Twig. The corners of the blade are completely unsupported, they move freely both up and down. I think the unsupported nature of the corners is what got me. These were not knicks, but random cuts. If anyone has a Twig, my advice is to stop using it. If you like fixed angle half blades razors, I have found the Soledge to be more than a better replacement and it is engineered for safety.

If the top cap of the Twig had T shaped wings to support the blade, if would likely be a much safer design, but Leaf chose form over function and now I am scarred.

I have a Twig and a Thorn and find both of them to be delightful razors.

 

[ErkRusselReserve]

I have a Twig and a Thorn and find both of them to be delightful razors.

I did enjoy my Twig as well. Loved the single edge fixed angles aspect of it. But it got me too many times.

 

[Lane101]

The basic question seems to be this: Is chatter to be defined as {1} skipping erratically along the surface of your skin (such as a drill bit might chatter when it reaches a knot in the wood), or as {2} making a clickety-clack noise (such as your teeth might chatter when you're cold)?

The first definition is one of motion, while the second is one of sound. The latter may or may not be a symptom of the first, or the two may or may not be symptoms of the same root cause.

If chatter is sound, then it could be coming from the blade's contact with your hairs, or it could be coming from within the razor itself, or both. I don't know. But it seems pretty obvious to me that some blades (and blade/razor combos) sound different than others, so it's hard to accept an assertion that blade chatter doesn't exist under that definition of chatter.

If chatter is motion, however, then I have several questions. First, how can you tell how the blade is moving? How can you tell it's skipping along your skin? It seems the most obvious answer would be the results of the shave: there would be spots of poorly shaven stubble. Perhaps weepers/nicks would be another bit of evidence; ideally, any drawn blood would need to be in proximity to a spot of aforementioned poorly shaven stubble. Secondly, how can you tell if it's the fault of the razor design or the fault of your own prep and/or technique. It seems the best answer would be that, to rule out prep, you'd be switching razors partway through the same shave. But, when it comes to technique, there's no real scientific way to account for that: you might have good technique with one razor but poor technique with another.

Anyway, do carry on with the conversation. It's an interesting read.

Hi, nicely summed up and this somewhat takes us back to my OP in this thread that there are two definitions of blade chatter out there including:

• A blade that sticks and then skips along your face when shaving. Possible for both DE and SE razors though most commonly mentioned as an issue for SE razors, especially when shaving against the grain (ATG) where this can cause a nasty cut. I've seen lots of mention of this definition both in recent on-line materials in shaving "how-to" documents that go back over 100 years.
• A blade that flexes (or vibrates) during the shave. Have seen even more posts referencing this from many sources including B&B members that related it to shaving noise level to marketing materials for various razors touting superior blade clamping. I've even seen a patent that reference reduced blade chatter though it provides no proof or statistics.

Don't see why this has to be an either or question. Both of these can be true though we may decide at some point to rename one of them. The first appears to be real and is periodically referenced over the years. Only happened to me once when I first returned to DE because I did not tighten my TTO razor correctly. I've old documents that warn against this when shaving with a SE blade ATG as another example.

The second one seems to be more based on perception of the sound heard while shaving. No real scientific proof and also an open question as to whether blade vibration/flexing helps or hurts shave quality. Modern shaving system cartridges are actually designed in many cases to flex (sometimes with tiny springs) to better match skin contours for example. Note that if there is sound then it has to be caused by some type of motion/vibration as this is what creates sound.

Part of why chatter has received a lot of attention is that many modern razor manufactures talk about reducing it as a benefit from superior blade clamping in their razors. One goal of this thread is to better understand how real this benefit is in delivering a better quality shave. I looked for some research related to this and really couldn't find any other than what I noted above on modern shaving systems. Without research we need to rely on perception and YMMV though this is not always accurate.

Definitely an interesting and worthwhile discussion.

 

[Lane101]

Chatter is the blade flexing away from your desired shave angle. The hair/skin is pulling the blade towards being perpendicular to your skin. It doesn't cut well at this angle so it kind of skips. Then it inevitably snaps back to where it started because of the tension on the blade. That back-and-forth movement is the chatter. It's not specific to razors. Chatter is a big deal in machining when either a tool flexes away from the workpiece, the workpiece flexes away from the tool, or both. The sound is caused by the chatter and is less a specific sound than it is a change in sound. In machining everything sounds consistent and then you'll hear the chatter. Not always louder - just different. You can try this yourself with a kitchen knife on a cutting board. Start with a low angle and drag it across the board perpendicular to the edge (like how you'd shave). It'll sound nice and smooth. Then increase the angle until it skips and chatters. It moves and sounds different.

Reasonable definition as there has to be some movement to create the sound many refer to as chatter. My sense is that your team has done an excellent job in designing your razors to minimize flex in the direction actual force will be applied during a shave.

The follow-on question is if any razor blade flexing/chatter changes the angle enough while shaving to make a material difference in shave quality. Especially if the shaver has applied good slick lather to @NorthernSoul 's point above related to knife/cutting board lather.

May or may not be relevant, as this was a cartridge system, I recall Gillette marketing its M3Power vibrating razor over a decade ago that was supposed to lift hairs. Shick took them to court and they had to retract the claim as it was "unsubstantiated and inaccurate,". Anecdotal but can make one wonder if a small amount of blade flexing/vibration will affect our shaves? I'd bet those M3Power razors vibrated more than most of our DE razors in use today.

In all likelihood a change of a degree or two in angle will not have any material effect on the quality of our shaves. Shaving is a manual process so I suspect that we easily vary our razor shaving angles by a few degrees during and between shaves with no ill effect. Suspect there would need to be significant blade flexing to really effect one's shave and that you are right, in your post #112 above, that blade chatter may not be that big of an issue. That is if it is an issue at all.

Curious, when designing your razors have you ever been able to test and measure blade flexing across design options? Not so much how one can depress/flex a blade manually with a finger or tool. This can be misleading if the pressure is applied in the opposite direction of physical force of a real shave. More interested in measurement of actual flex during a real or simulated shave with a razor held at a reasonably correct angle.