Bevel Setting Troubles

[Timeclo]

So I am still learning the art of honing and the main issue seems to be setting the bevel.

I've honed couples razors all the way up to my Black Ark and they're not cutting as close as I'd like. I am assuming that it's a bevel issue because working through the midrange/polishing level did not improve the edge, in fact made it worse.

I have three main troublesome razors that I want to hone. A Black Jack Soligen, Geneva Cutlery, and a Old Keen Kutter Wedge.

I've been mainly using the Shapton Pro 1.5k to set the bevel on all my razors and it's done well with some but not these three. The issue is when I am finished with the 1.5k, the edge is still not sharp enough. It'll cut through arm hair, tree-top, but there is a bit of hesitation in the process. With some other razors like GDs, another Geneva, and my Richware straight, I know I set the bevel because they cut hair by just looking at it.

I'm trying to narrow down the issue here. It could be that the 1.5k is not aggressive enough to get the thin edge width. I spend an hour on bevel setting and got to the same result. I reset the bevel 3+ times and had the same result. I've also used my Atoma 600 to see if I could thin out the bevel. I had some success but by the end, the result is the same.. not as sharp as I'd like.

I have a Shapton 1K on the way to see if it'll make any difference. So far, I've been able to set the bevel on most of my Gold Dollars so I'm thinking the type of steel might also play into the equation here. Trying to troubleshoot my way through these vintages and ultimately, I need to set the bevel on these straights.

One thing, the Black Jack and the Geneva do have a slight warp to them but I should be able to work through it. It's not a severe warp but a noticeable one.

 

[lightfoot]

I’m assuming you’ve tried the burr method? Some people don’t advocate for it but it’s something to keep in mind. I’ve also had good luck with narrow stones or using the side of the bevel setting stone on questionable blades. I just make sure to relieve the right-angled edges really good so the blade doesn’t get gouged.I’ve also rounded the edge of a few stones to deal with warped blades.

 

[Timeclo]

I’m assuming you’ve tried the burr method? Some people don’t advocate for it but it’s something to keep in mind. I’ve also had good luck with narrow stones or using the side of the bevel setting stone on questionable blades. I just make sure to relieve the right-angled edges really good so the blade doesn’t get gouged.I’ve also rounded the edge of a few stones to deal with warped blades.

I have not tried the burr method. I've had success in just honing normally so I haven't looked into but maybe I'll try it tonight with my problem razors.

 

[lightfoot]

I have not tried the burr method. I've had success in just honing normally so I haven't looked into but maybe I'll try it tonight with my problem razors.

Yeah you can watch some videos posted by Joe Carlton from Calton Cutlery. Just search “Joe Calton straight razors”. He basically works up to burr formation at each stage. But again it’s somewhat controversial in some honing circles.

 

[JaggardJ]

Could there be a geometry issue on the razors? Does a sharpie test show the length of the bevel hitting on both sides?

 

[Timeclo]

Could there be a geometry issue on the razors? Does a sharpie test show the length of the bevel hitting on both sides?

It could be. When I loupe the edges, I find a consistent striation all across so the bevel does hit both sides. For the Black Jack razor, the bevel is thinner towards the toe on one side and thinner towards the heel on the other. For the Geneva, the bevel is thicker towards toe/heel on one side and thicker towards the middle on the other. The wedge, the bevel is slightly thinner on one side but pretty consistent, following the smile of the blade.

I'm hoping to work through these warps but we'll see. So far, no success yet.

 

[Herrenberg]

Any magnification you may have around may tell you something. Look at both sides of the bevel, and dead-on to the edge, in very good light, moving things around to look for telltale spots of brightness. Something's not right, clearly.

 

[Calou]

From my point of view, the reset of the bevel is not an action to cut but to adjust the geometry. the hair test says nothing about geometry.
check geometry before moving on. That the two sides do not come together is not the most important. Moreover under high magnification we can see that it does not join, the edge is completely chewed

 

[Steve56]

and it's done well with some but not these three.

Suggests a razor geometry problem, warped, bent, temper (restored) etc. These are not always super easy to detect.

Could there be a geometry issue on the razors? Does a sharpie test show the length of the bevel hitting on both sides?

Short answer, yes. Long answer maybe not. A Sharpie test shows where you are hitting the bevel, AND where your stroke is not hitting the bevel.

If you’re honing stroke can hit 100% of a well-made razor bevel with consistent pressure end to end, then yes.

 

[HazMat Shaver]

Use the sharpie test. Kill the edge on a stone so you are taking off the edge completely. Then set bevel again. The sharpie will tell you if your getting to the tip of the bevel. Looking at scratches is not the way to be sure. Look straight down on edge with bright light.

A razor that has a thin bevel in one area and thick on the opposite side means it was ground badly. Not something you are going to fix. And it doesnt mean its warped. Its just as it is and doesnt hurt anything besides the looks.
A warp you will feel on the stone. You will have to pull the blade down on one side and up on the other so that the bevel can be set along the full length of the blade.

Narrow stones or learning to hone on one third of a stone is what is needed for a warped blade

I know some of this has been said. There is a lot to learn when honing. Bevel set is most important. Doing it 3 or 4 times to be sure is best when learning.

But remember it only takes one bad move when honing to damage the edge. Then you have to start over. You can try to finish an edge and use too much pressure and take away from your edge. Slurry is your friend. Swarf is not Learn to use slurry.

I recommend learning the thumb nail test to check for bevel set. It takes time to learn what to feel for but i find it best IMO.

Geometry issue can cause problems but most the time is just looks. When you learn to hone you can run a blade across a stone 2 or 3 times and feel what needs done.

Keep at it

 

[Darth Scandalous]

The issue is when I am finished with the 1.5k, the edge is still not sharp enough. It'll cut through arm hair, tree-top, but there is a bit of hesitation in the process.

I use the Shapton Pro 1.5k for pretty much all my bevel work lately except big chips, although it will work for that too, just slow. I suppose I've only done 10 razors on it though, but I like it. And, to be honest, I'm more interested in what the bevel looks like than how it cuts at that point, but the kind of hesitant treetopping you describe is pretty much what I expect coming off the 1.5k.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Sounds like at least the Blackjack and the Geneva have some warp and will need to be honed, using a rolling X stroke. That you see stria across the bevel does not matter if you do not see stria all the way to the edge.

As said, hair test is at best unreliable, at least until you calibrate your hair test. It is not that it cuts the hair but how it cuts, and that it cuts every time. Hair test only test a very small sample size of the edge, which is what makes them unreliable.

Photos of each of the razors as close as possible of the whole razor on both sides would help to better advise you.

Hone one razor at a time, do not use the 600-diamond plate to set a bevel unless you are doing edge repair. Diamonds cut deep and you will need to remove ALL the deep 600 grit stria and a bit of the edge, it will make a lot of extra work for you.

I doubt a 1k will make much difference from the 1.5k either will easily set a bevel. You will need to develop a fool proof method to determine when the bevel is fully set. The easiest way is to look straight down on the bevel, any shiny reflections are where the bevels are not meeting fully. You will also need to remove all the 600 stria.

Would not hurt to have more magnification when you are learning to see more 60-100X, the Micro Brite at $15 is a good investment.

Photos of each of the razors as close as possible of the whole razor on both sides would help to advise you better further.

 

[Timeclo]

From my point of view, the reset of the bevel is not an action to cut but to adjust the geometry. the hair test says nothing about geometry.
check geometry before moving on. That the two sides do not come together is not the most important. Moreover under high magnification we can see that it does not join, the edge is completely chewed

View attachment 1522646

Well, if a part of the edge doesn't cut hair, it could be a geometry problem so that would lead me to look more closely to the edge. Would this picture be a underhoned edge on 1k or overhoned edge? Or does that not matter

 

[Timeclo]

I tried using the burr method and doing about 140 laps on one side, checking for the burr, and the same for the other side. Then did some back and forth and X strokes to remove the burr. The result was about the same.. cutting some hair but the bottom half of the edge was struggling to cut hair. The dull side seems to change so not sure what I can pinpoint.

I don't use rolling X stroke for the BlackJack razor because the edge seems to touch the stone all the way without it. For the Geneva, I use the rolling X stroke because I can see the edge not reaching the stone at the toe and heel.

 

[Timeclo]

Some of the pictures of the Black Jack and Geneva Straights. First two are BJ, last four Geneva.

it's really hard to capture the bevel in picture.

 

[Calou]

Well, if a part of the edge doesn't cut hair, it could be a geometry problem so that would lead me to look more closely to the edge. Would this picture be a underhoned edge on 1k or overhoned edge? Or does that not matter

This image is the result of a bevel reset and shows the state of the edge when the reset is complete for me.

 

[HazMat Shaver]

A USB Micro Scope that can be bought on Amazon/eBay for a very low cost helps a lot with taking pictures of an edge and posting them on the forum. It will also help you to understand honing better as it allows you to see much better. It does have a downfall, as it lets you see too much too. Here is a shot I pulled off of my computer from a Digital microscope...

This is a picture of a Jnat edge that was finished with 8 or 10 laps on clear water. ( @Steve56 ) It's just a picture to show you what the microscope can show you. The bad part about this is this entire picture, from side to side is showing 1mm of the blade. So you must look at the entire blade. Not just one spot.

BTW, I think the one I bought years ago said it was a 300x. Wrong! In reality, as I've tested this against a couple of other real scopes this is about 100x. So don't believe the blown-up Chinese hipe.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I tried using the burr method and doing about 140 laps on one side

That sounds like a lot.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The first razor needs a heel correction to move the heel corner well away from the stabilizer, (red arrow). You are honing on the stabilizer, (blue arrow) which is keeping the heel half of the razor off the stone and not making full contact.

Note the notch that has been ground into the spine, (green arrow) and the excessive spine wear. At least one layer of electrical tape, possibly two will be needed to compensate for the spine wear and should bring the bevel angle more towards factory grind and get the bevels to meet easier, once the heel has been corrected.

The warp is minor, the issue is the heel corner and lack of use of tape. lots of spine needlessly ground away. It is hollow ground and excessive pressure will flex the blade and cause the back of the bevel to act as a fulcrum and lift the edge off the stone.

You also need to clean off the rust on the blade belly, if it gets on your strop, you will be stropping on rust, Ferrous Oxide that will ruin/scratch an edge.



The second razor has massive spine wear and must be honed with at least 2 layers of tape, 3 is about the most you can do without it getting squishy.

Tape and a rolling X will get this razor honed, it does have a slight warp and has been honed on the tang.



The third razor also needs a heel correction, note the sharp heel corner, it will cut you and eventually form a hook if not corrected. A rolling X will easily hone this razor, it too has a minor warp and substantial spine wear. I would put 2 layers of tape and use a rolling X, it does have minor warp.

None of these razor are smiling razor edges, the toes have been worn from honing with excessive pressure and low grit aggressive stones, in an attempt to force the warped razor on to the stone.

All will easily be honed with tape and a rolling X. The second razor will be the trickiest to hone because of the massive spine wear.

Yea, don’t use the burr method, the goal is to not make a burr when honing razors. If after 100 laps you can not get the bevels to meet, stop. You have another problem and figure out what it is. Doing more of the same and expecting a different result is not working.

 

[Timeclo]

The first razor needs a heel correction to move the heel corner well away from the stabilizer, (red arrow). You are honing on the stabilizer, (blue arrow) which is keeping the heel half of the razor off the stone and not making full contact.

Note the notch that has been ground into the spine, (green arrow) and the excessive spine wear. At least one layer of electrical tape, possibly two will be needed to compensate for the spine wear and should bring the bevel angle more towards factory grind and get the bevels to meet easier, once the heel has been corrected.

The warp is minor, the issue is the heel corner and lack of use of tape. lots of spine needlessly ground away. It is hollow ground and excessive pressure will flex the blade and cause the back of the bevel to act as a fulcrum and lift the edge off the stone.

You also need to clean off the rust on the blade belly, if it gets on your strop, you will be stropping on rust, Ferrous Oxide that will ruin/scratch an edge.



The second razor has massive spine wear and must be honed with at least 2 layers of tape, 3 is about the most you can do without it getting squishy.

Tape and a rolling X will get this razor honed, it does have a slight warp and has been honed on the tang.



The third razor also needs a heel correction, note the sharp heel corner, it will cut you and eventually form a hook if not corrected. A rolling X will easily hone this razor, it too has a minor warp and substantial spine wear. I would put 2 layers of tape and use a rolling X, it does have minor warp.

None of these razor are smiling razor edges, the toes have been worn from honing with excessive pressure and low grit aggressive stones, in an attempt to force the warped razor on to the stone.

All will easily be honed with tape and a rolling X. The second razor will be the trickiest to hone because of the massive spine wear.

Yea, don’t use the burr method, the goal is to not make a burr when honing razors. If after 100 laps you can not get the bevels to meet, stop. You have another problem and figure out what it is. Doing more of the same and expecting a different result is not working.

View attachment 1522908

Thank you. I don't think the heel is the issue here because I grinded it off with a dremel and I get undercut on it. I'll try using tape and see if that improves and lighten on the pressure and see that helps. I can see how more pressure can bend the edge towards the back of the bevel.