Bevel set - treetop hair when done?

[sd_baker]

I have honed a couple of GD razors and am working on a Titan. As a benchmark for finishing bevel set, I've been using

1. Wet Thumbnail Test
2. Undercut across entire edge
3. Shave leg hair (I'm arm hair challenged) against the skin.

But I've seen this video using SP1k and Titan, where the razor treetops arm hair when finished bevel set

I'm using a SP1.5k and same Titan razor. When the razor passes my tests, it does not do any HHT or treetoping.

Q: Am I not finished bevel setting ?

 

[cugel]

I think if it shaves easily you are seeing a good sign. Now “ easily” is subjective! Keep going and see how the edge turns out?

 

[silverlifter]

Treetopping, thumb tests, etc., are only heuristics. Check the bevel and edge under a loupe with direct light and look for reflections.

See:
Bevel Setting Honing - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/wiki/Honing#Bevel_Setting

 

[Darth Scandalous]

When I come off the Shapton 1.5 I expect the edge to at least be grabbing hairs above skin level, maybe not cutting them (or not too many anyway). Which, honestly is about what I'm seeing in the video.

 

[Eshebert]

Treetopping, thumb tests, etc., are only heuristics. Check the bevel and edge under a loupe with direct light and look for reflections.

See:
Bevel Setting Honing - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/wiki/Honing#Bevel_Setting

I agree, I hate to say the right or wrong way but I can tell you what I do. I want it to tree top, but I use visual ques first.

Once I see the undercut look right and the swarth load reduce. I loop the bevel. I want a pretty bevel, meaning even and consistent under a 10X loop. Once my eye tells me I am good, I worry about any shave test. I do not do the thumb nail test, my current method has been bringing consistent results.

I will say, I spend a lot of time on the Shapton 1.5K. If I had to guess, 80% of time spent from my bevel to getting on my finisher is on the 1.5K. I swap over to finisher after 8K. It once again slows down on my finishers. I use small stones so I get to milk the final stages and enjoy myself . My only large bench stone is my Black Ark, and its slower than Grandpa in a 5k marathon.

 

[Gamma]

Tree topping hair can happen without the bevel being set. The lack of bright spots on the apex can happen before the bevel is set. Undercut doesn't indicate the bevel is set. Most people don't read undercut correctly, same with the fingernail tests.
Undercut isn't one thing... it develops from zero and goes to 11 (spinal tap joke).
Establishing undercut is one thing, violent undercut is another thing. Having a pile of water with particulate in it and honing quickly isn't undercut.

If you can pull your blade through nail without it binding, you are on track.
If your undercut is read using a minimum of only clear water, no slurry or swarf, and moving slow, and you have a violent undercut, you are on the right track.
Bright spots on the apex mean you are not done but the lack of them does not mean you are done.
If you can shave arm hair, easily, you are on the right track but it doesn't mean the bevel is done.

Feedback can tell you where you are but setting benchmarks is required to understand it. We learn to associate feel with stages of completion.
You can feel it, you can hear, it. The visuals add in also. It's a combination of things, not just one thing, all the parts have to click.

If you can manage a shave with your bevel set work you're either there or close. It's a good way to set benchmarks for the feedbacks....learn to associate how the undercut looked when the bevel is done, make that a standard. Same with the rest of the 'tells'.

 

[lightfoot]

Try to set the bevel as best you can then just take it through the rest of your stones. If the edge is no good the second or third trip through the stones then you might think about amping at the pressure at bevel set the next time around.

Sometimes when we hear statements like “Hone, shave, repeat” it sounds like you’re just being asked to pay your dues or something. What I would suggest is that re-honing from the ground up as many times as you need to can be a really valuable diagnostic and troubleshooting approach.

 

[lightfoot]

I meant to say, “amping UP the pressure the next time around.”…

 

[sd_baker]

I just had another go on a GD66 with the SP1.5k and got to HHT2 (splitting hairs) and treetopping a few leg hairs. Wonderful.

On top of that, I did TNT and felt the edge grip into my wet nail much harder than my previous bevel set attempts.

Unfortunately only the heel 2/3 of the edge does this ... now off to figure out how to get this level on the toe 1/3.

This is definitely progress. Thanks for all the helpful feedback, all.

 

[sd_baker]

If you can pull your blade through nail without it binding, you are on track.

Do you mean "can't pull"?

 

[duke762]

Unfortunately only the heel 2/3 of the edge does this ... now off to figure out how to get this level on the toe 1/3.

Yes Sir. That was one of my biggest problems starting out. Two best pieces of advice I got were rolling X-strokes and lift my elbow. Worked like a charm...

 

[Gamma]

Do you mean "can't pull"?

No.
The blade should pull through the nail smoothly.
First part of the so-called 'test' is to see if the edge will bite into the nail when it is on an angle. A well developed bevel will bite at a steeper angle than a marginal bevel will.

The second part of the test is to pull the blade across the nail sort of horizontally after the bite. If the bevel's width, or edge width actually, is even across the length of the blade, then the pull will be smooth. That is a good sign. If the bevel has the geometry of a lasagna noodle, where is it wavy, etc, then it will resist being pulled 'through' and that is not a good sign.

 

[JPO]

I have never been able to use the tumb nail test for anything more then at the early stages of chip removal.
A 10 to 15x loupe tells me more about the edge then any other tests.

If you have a small burr that leans slightly over to one side, all these tests can give you a false read.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Honestly TPT is the best way I've found to check bevel. If you're honing a lot of razors; your thumb can start to look like a magic eye poster after a bit though. Eventually you just get a feel for it on the stone (most stones at least... maybe some bevelers it's harder with... I don't use a variety these days)... and can stop checking entirely. But until then, I'd just have a thumb pad that looked like it went through the paper shredder then got black ink rubbed all over it.

Of course as with anything, there's risk involved so don't do what I say because I accept no responsibility when you mangle yourself.


Now, assuming everyones TPT is different like everyones HHT... I would do the TPT you aren't SUPPOSED to do. Run down the blade with very light pressure. A good bevel on a razor will painlessly split 1-2 outer layers of skin with almost no force/effort. Important part is check the parts of the blade you want. If it starts to snag or pull at the skin or slip up and out of the thumb... you're running into an unbeveled part of the blade.

There's some level of "feel" involved; but mostly it's behavior based. Obviously this requires a very very steady hand. If you're shaking; it's not only dangerous, but pointless.


If you're hairy and don't care about looking like a shaved ape, you can also dry shave less sensitive parts of your body (Torso/legs) stretch the skin and run the blade along flush and WTG. If it doesn't require a ton of force or miss any hairs, bevel is pretty good the length of the blade. Again, this can make you look pretty crazy if you're honing a ton of razors. Dont do this anywhere that tends to get sensitive or itchy though... it's almost certainly putting microscratches and cuts in the skin and that is bad news in a lot of areas. Depending on the beveler; this may be a BIT too demanding... but it'll definitely ensure you're fully beveled after a midrange hone; and is usable after some of the higher level bevelers. I used it a lot after DMT 8k because with my DMT 1.2 to 8k... even when I was starting out with them, that added about 1 minute on the 8k after the 1.2k to get close enough to an 8k finish I could check for dead spots in the bevel almost as fast as if it was just coming of the beveler. Doable on a lot of razors off the 1.2 as well; but I leaned towards 30 or so strokes on the 8k then checking the bevel as the fastest way of testing bevels I wasn't sure of when I didn't feel like doing TPT. Mostly useful for checking razors that are warped or poorly honed restorations when you're trying to make sure you're hitting everywhere all the way to the edge without getting out a loupe/scope or flashlight and trusting the reflection (which imho isn't 100% without checking from enough angles it can prove a hassle).


Those were my two methods when I was starting out restoring razors.