Bevel set - marker remains on edge near tip and heel

[sd_baker]

Bevel setting a fresh Titan on SP1.5k, I'm having some trouble getting the tip and heel.

I'm torqueing the edge into the stone and using some rolling x, but the heel is especially hard to get to and erase the marker.

I think this razor came with a compound bevel from the factory. So the flat plane formed on the stone is not reaching the apex.

Should I switch to SG500 and grind until the marker is gone (compound bevel is removed)?

Adding tape could help, but I'm not too keen on that option.

 

[kayvee]

I’m fairly new to this. Take with a grain of salt.

Have you tried to see if the blade is flat? Maybe you don’t need a rolling stroke at all.

Observe how long the heel and toe are being honed on your strike. I suspect you may need to delay the rolling a tad and try to end the rolling earlier in the stroke.

 

[Steve56]

Here ya go.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

From the picture it looks like you inked both the bevel and the spine, correct? There's quite a bit of ink on the last half of the spine. Are you riding up onto the shoulder?

 

[Gamma]

Have the stones been lapped flat and proven flat?
Lotta wear on the spine at the toe, almost none by the tang.
Looks like it could be....

Grind might be off
Incorrectly applied pressure/torguee
Pressing on spine near toe with off hand maybe.
Way too much torque
A mix of some or all of the abovre.


For a rolling stroke to work, the edge must make contact throughout the roll.
When you are not making contact, you have to see that and fix it....continuing to roll is just going to exacerbate the situation.
Torque has to be applied judiciously. Too much force in the torque and the blade can twist and what I see on the spine can happen.

 

[sd_baker]

Have the stones been lapped flat and proven flat?

I do flatten regularly. After reading this, I made a pencil grid and removed the markings in under 5 seconds of diamond plate lapping under running water. I then put the stone against the kitchen granite and was not able to insert receipt paper any where with any ease. What other proof should I look for?

Lotta wear on the spine at the toe, almost none by the tang.

This is not something I paid attention to, thanks for pointing it out.

I make my strokes heel leading at maybe 30-45 degrees.

Looks like it could be....

Grind might be off
Incorrectly applied pressure/torguee

Pressing on spine near toe with off hand maybe.

Yes I do place my off hand at the toe when making X stroke, like gssixgun does. I will revisit this aspect.

Way too much torque

Yes this is possible that I've over corrected and am applying too much torque.

I will do some more work on this razor later.

 

[Gamma]

Removing pencil grids doesn't ensure the stone is flat. Slurry can remove grids long before flatness is achieved.
Lying a stone on granite or glass or whatever that is probably not flat isn't a functional way to check for flatness.
Checking for flatness with a decent quality straight edge is what most of us do.

Using the off hand to guide can be fine, unless there is pressure being exerted on the toe. So we see people do this and it can work out ok but we also have to maie sure we are not pressing down on the spine in that area.

Regardless of stroke type, the wear pattern would usually be consistent across the spine/bevel.
@Darth Scandalous mentioned it before I did, and asked if you are riding on the blade's shoulder. The photo sorta looks like maybe you are. The shoulder should not be on the stone. If you are doing that, that is why there is no wear on the spine by the tang. If the shoulder is on the stone, then the blade is angled and only a portion of the toe can make contact.
But it is also entirely possible that the photo just shows a glare spot and there are other issues afoot.

 

[sd_baker]

From the picture it looks like you inked both the bevel and the spine, correct?

Yes.

There's quite a bit of ink on the last half of the spine. Are you riding up onto the shoulder?

No, at least I don't think the shoulder ever gets onto the stone. I sharpen at quite a steel heel leading angle to avoid this.

I'm torqueing the edge into the stone (perhaps overly so), and my dominant hand is closer to the heel, so the torque is more apparent there.

 

[Gamma]

If the shoulder is not on the stone at all ever, and there is no wear on the spine from tang to mid-point, then I think either the blade is twisting from torque or the the grind is terribly whacked. The stone would have to be waaaay out of flat to cause that. I think anyone would be able to see it. Best to iron out all variables.

Looking at the photo - check the area where the tang transitions into the grind of the blade. In that photo, there seems to be a flat surface that that looks like it's been on the stone. Might just be a weird reflection though.

 

[DrStrange]

You have to do the marker test on both sides of the edge.

If the flip side is the same,
then your edge just has a little smile and there's nothing really wrong with it.

See post #3

Bevel set - marker remains on edge near tip and heel

Bevel setting a fresh Titan on SP1.5k, I'm having some trouble getting the tip and heel. I'm torqueing the edge into the stone and using some rolling x, but the heel is especially hard to get to and erase the marker. I think this razor came with a compound bevel from the factory. So the...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[lightfoot]

Every razor that I’ve owned that’s made on a Gold Dollar-like template is likely sharpened on a belt by the manufacturer.

The only thing that seems to help is cutting in a new bevel with a heavy slurry and staying on it until the razor starts cutting arm hair easily.

Keep the slurry heavy and resist the temptation to dilute until it cuts from heel to toe.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

What does the other side look like?

If the ink is coming off the reverse, at the heel and not the toe, the razor has a slight warp, nothing that a rolling X stroke, like Steve posted, will not easily fix.

Does look like you are honing on the tang, which will keep the heel half of the razor off the stone or at least from making full contact.

Typical warp for a Gold Dollar. Perfect your rolling X stroke, easy fix.

 

[JPO]

I have only honed 4 Gold Dollar razor. They had the same shape as the titan, more or less. They all had an overground heel and toe. This is probably done with a elevated spine on a belt sander.
So when you are setting a bevel on these types of razor, it is more like you need to shape the razor first.
To reach the heel and toe you need to hone to a smile, or take off some of the belly to make the heel and toe catch up.

In your particular case you can also round off the toe a little and work some more on the heel.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yup, they are “Kit” razors, rarely do they not need repair and reprofiling to hone properly.

At the least reprofiling the heel will make the razor much easier to hone.

I have never been able to just hone a Gold Dollar, like a vintage razor, they all need some work. Once sorted, they can take a good shaving edge, scales are another issue that make honing and stropping challenging.

I have honed a fair number.

 

[ArtVandelay123]

That's a geometry issue with the razor.

 

[Steve56]

Gold Dollars are like a box of assorted chocolates, every one is different, lol.

 

[TheBeast]

When I started honing, Titan was my first razor. Here is what I learned so far... Please keep in mind I am not trying to guide you, I am still a beginer. More experienced people will tell you what needs to be done.

1. Until I got myself a straightedge, I had no idea how far off my stones are in terms of flatness. Having stones proven flat against the straightedge removed a variable. Pencil Grid, marble, glass, Diamond plate - All didn't show nearly as much a straightedge. Very very flat stones against a straight edge = I know it's me who's messing up

2. Titans and Gold Dollars (All 5 that I have) have warps, uneven grinds and the heel and toe are hard to get - because they are shaped in a way you won't hit them unless (for toe) I end the rolling stroke with lifting the heel completely off the stone. To hit the heel, I start the rolling stroke with the toe lifted. Or I just keep honing until I hit evenly - here I need to hone A LOT and be very precise and consistent - which I am not. Very little deviation from stroke to stroke is enough to keep scratching my head for hours. And it usually takes a long time and a lot of steel anyway with these to set a bevel.
2.1. They Also have fat shoulders and stabilizers, so running them Up on the Stone is easier that you think. I kept doing it even if I thought I wasn't.

3. Trying different strokes, different techniques when starting didn't get me anywhere. I had the most success when I sat Down and sticked to a plan. I can't start of with circles, then do some straight strokes and end with X strokes. With Every stroke I put more Pressure somewhere else and I never get a result I am looking for. One type of stroke, constant amount of Pressure, same grip on the razor, same amount of torque.

4. Carefull with the Pressure and torque - it helps me to just think about "I want to hit the edge". That way All my Pressure isn't just on the spine. Thats the point why I would want to use torque. But I don't want to make the edge dig into the Stone either with too much of it. Same with Pressure - if I Press too hard - I never get a sharp edge, even if it helps to remove the sharpie evenly.

5. I had to focus VERY hard to set my first bevel, even harder to get a shave ready edge. Took me a lot of reading, watching and posting threads, but a LOT of trying and working, not worrying about messing up a razor or two. Especially not gold dollars or Titans. It was surprising how much it takes to do it for the first time. Then it starts being more and more straightforward with each razor. So really LISTEN to these guys, they know. But they have honed so much it would be harder for them to fail than for you to succeed in honing a razor. Takes time and dedication.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Typical warp for a Gold Dollar

Gold Dollars are like a box of assorted

But fellas, this is a Titan, which we have been told repeatedly (though not so much lately) are much higher quality products.

 

[Gamma]

^
Hah...
The arrow points to the highlight I find suspect.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Your job is to help every mm of the edge make contact with the stone.

Divide the edge into four to six sections and try making short x-strokes using very light pressure over the different sections on both sides. Is every mm making contact? What about the last 2 mm of the heel and toe?

This exercise should help you learn the edge and figure out what you need to do help the edge make contact. Many razors require rolling pressure or raising/lowering the heel/toe to reach the last 2 mm.

I suspect that the edge has a faint smile at the heel and toe, and you simply need to roll a bit to reach the heel and toe.