Bevel honing question

[raccoonandbrush]

Yesterday I tried using my Chinese 12K for the first time. The shave that I got after was not what I wanted. The razor has been pulling after using the 8K and the 12K. I did 120 laps on the 12K. I read how many laps people do with different grits, and on each grit I have been doing more laps than suggested. The razor cuts hair good, just not as effortlessly as I want it. It got me thinking, "Does the bevel need to be set better?" If I go back to 1K and re-set the bevel, then go through the progression of grits, will that make the difference?

If I should re-set the bevel, will a 325 diamond hone do a good job since I don't have a 1K?

 

[professorchaos]

Bear in mind that the Chinese 12K is a very slow hone. Depending on the edge's condition, 120 laps might be a starting point. If memory serves, when I still had one, the average razor took closer to 200.

What hones do you have? It takes a little experience to tell if the bevel needs to be set. Before going to that extreme, you may wish to give it 30-40 laps on the 8K (assuming you have one available), then return to the Chinese 12K.

 

[raccoonandbrush]

Bear in mind that the Chinese 12K is a very slow hone. Depending on the edge's condition, 120 laps might be a starting point. If memory serves, when I still had one, the average razor took closer to 200.

What hones do you have? It takes a little experience to tell if the bevel needs to be set. Before going to that extreme, you may wish to give it 30-40 laps on the 8K (assuming you have one available), then return to the Chinese 12K.

I have the Norton 4K/8K and the Chinese 12K. Maybe I need to lap the 12K more, it might not be flat enough.

 

[Wid]

When was the last time the razor had a good edge on it? Was the edge damaged at all?

I was getting a pretty good shave when I would use a slurry then going to plain water. This was using the Norton 1K/4K/8K before the Chinese stone.

 

[raccoonandbrush]

When was the last time the razor had a good edge on it? Was the edge damaged at all?

I was getting a pretty good shave when I would use a slurry then going to plain water. This was using the Norton 1K/4K/8K before the Chinese stone.

It has a good edge now, it's just not great.

 

[Wid]

I'd go back to the 8K till I could shave off it then to the 12K. Try a slurry with the 12K, it does help.

 

[raccoonandbrush]

I'd go back to the 8K till I could shave off it then to the 12K. Try a slurry with the 12K, it does help.

How good a shave should I be able to get with the 8K?

 

[Wid]

I can get a pretty good shave off the Norton 8K. Only after that do I go to the higher stone.

 

[raccoonandbrush]

I can get a pretty good shave off the Norton 8K. Only after that do I go to the higher stone.

Does the razor pull after using the 8K?

 

[Wid]

Can't say it does.

 

[Utopian]

Two questions...
What did you use to set the bevel and how did you confirm that the bevel was set?

How many laps did you do on the 8k?

 

[raccoonandbrush]

Can't say it does.

That's some very helpful information. If your razor doesn't pull after 8K, then that means that either I didn't do enough laps on the 4K side, or I need to re-set the bevel.

 

[raccoonandbrush]

Two questions...
What did you use to set the bevel and how did you confirm that the bevel was set?

How many laps did you do on the 8k?

I bought it off eBay. It was sharp, but it wasn't sharp sharp. I never confirmed the bevel was set correctly. When I look at the bevel, the the top line of the bevel is uneven at parts, does that matter?

I did 80 laps on the 8K side. 120 laps on the Chinese 12K.

 

[Luc]

No honer here but the few straights I honed make me say this:

First things first, do you have something to look at the edge closer? Microscope or something?

Second, if you are unsure that your stones are lapped, you need to lap them before honing. Did you use a pencil to draw a few lines, lap the stone and all pencil marks are gone?

Third, the number of laps is a number of laps, from one straight to another it varies, some need more laps and others less. I would be more drastic than Henry and would use the 4k for a bit. That is, not knowing the condition of the edge and thinking, there are very tiny tiny chips or no chips.

 

[Wid]

I've haven't done a ton of razors but one thing I have done was to reset the bevel on every eBay razor I have purchased. Like Luc stated, you need to get a better look at the edge. I use a 30x loupe to have a look see what the edge is looking like.

 

[Slash McCoy]

The 12K is for polishing an already established edge. If you hit the 12K when you already have a good edge, and your technique is good, and you have a decent blade to start with, you will get a VERY nice shave out of it. If you don't, I can only guess that it needs more work on coarser stones. Be sure to use very light pressure with all grits. The only time you would ever use moderate pressure is correcting gross damage or neglect with a 1k or a dmt. A razor edge is so fine and flexible that significant pressure actually warps the edge out of true, on a microscopic scale, so that the resulting bevel faces are not flat and true, and so your finishing stone does not meet the edge properly and polish the entire bevel face like it should. Very light pressure is the key. Really, not much more than the actual weight of the razor.

When you got it, and got it right, you will know. When you realize that you have finally achieved perfection in your edge, you won't stop grinning for a week. Hope you got a styptic pencil handy... you will very likely surprise yourself with a cut from just an errant touch of the razor to your face, when everything in your honing and stropping has finally come together and given you a sharpness like you have never experienced.

When I experience the problem you have, I go all the way back to the 1K, with about 2 dozen careful laps, then work my way up, 50 laps on medium grit stones and a hundred or two on finer ones, keeping the pressure dead light. It is a lot quicker than going hundreds and hundreds of laps on the 12K and getting nowhere.

 

[raccoonandbrush]

The 12K is for polishing an already established edge. If you hit the 12K when you already have a good edge, and your technique is good, and you have a decent blade to start with, you will get a VERY nice shave out of it. If you don't, I can only guess that it needs more work on coarser stones. Be sure to use very light pressure with all grits. The only time you would ever use moderate pressure is correcting gross damage or neglect with a 1k or a dmt. A razor edge is so fine and flexible that significant pressure actually warps the edge out of true, on a microscopic scale, so that the resulting bevel faces are not flat and true, and so your finishing stone does not meet the edge properly and polish the entire bevel face like it should. Very light pressure is the key. Really, not much more than the actual weight of the razor.

When you got it, and got it right, you will know. When you realize that you have finally achieved perfection in your edge, you won't stop grinning for a week. Hope you got a styptic pencil handy... you will very likely surprise yourself with a cut from just an errant touch of the razor to your face, when everything in your honing and stropping has finally come together and given you a sharpness like you have never experienced.

When I experience the problem you have, I go all the way back to the 1K, with about 2 dozen careful laps, then work my way up, 50 laps on medium grit stones and a hundred or two on finer ones, keeping the pressure dead light. It is a lot quicker than going hundreds and hundreds of laps on the 12K and getting nowhere.

That is very helpful. I do use just the weight of the razor in honing. I bet the bevel needs to be set better. That's the only reason I can think of for not getting good results.

 

[professorchaos]

Have you shaved with a razor finished on a Chinese 12K and enjoyed it? Edges are very personal things. The edge one considers perfect, another might think just okay.

 

[raccoonandbrush]

Have you shaved with a razor finished on a Chinese 12K and enjoyed it? Edges are very personal things. The edge one considers perfect, another might think just okay.

No, I haven't. I just want it to cut hairs without pulling.

 

[Wid]

I think you could do yourself a favor and get a stone you can use to set the bevel, it really does seem this might be the main problem.

That or send the razor out to a pro and get it honed. Then you can use what you have to keep it maintained.