Basic honing questions

[Sideburns]

I now have a Sharpton Glass Stone 7 set, with three stones and a diamond plate. The stones are marked as 25.0, 6.70 and .44, instead of a number in the thousands as I've seen used here before. Am I right in assuming that the smaller the number, the finer the grit and that the 25.0 stone is only good for knives and setting the bevel on a razor, which is something I hope I don't need to do until I have more experience.
Also, when I learned how to sharpen knives (I never heard the term "hone" used for that until I came here.) aboard ship back in 1972, I was taught to use five strokes on one side of the blade, then five on the other, but everything I've seen here says one and one. I'm presuming that in either case the idea is to keep the number of strokes on each side even, but is there any other reason to prefer one over the other?

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I think that's the Glass 7 knife kit, correct? Anyway, these stones are rated in microns rather than a grit scale. And Shapton's grit scale isn't completely consistent even across their own product range. But the 25 micron is somewhere around 500-600, the 6.7 is like 2k or 2.5k, and the .44 is like 30k or something. The 25 micron stone would be coarser than you would usually need even for bevel setting unless you were honing out a chip. But ought to be a *great* knife stone. I have the full sized Glass 500 and it gets used a lot on knives and tools.

One stroke on each side is good with razors because it avoids raising a burr.

I haven't used these specific stones but I'm guessing you're going to want a stone or 3 to bridge the gap between the 6.7 and the .44. I think there are a couple guys who have these, hopefully they can jump in.

 

[Sideburns]

Right now, all I have is an RSO that I want to use to practice honing, so the 6.7 and the .44 should probably be OK. When I'm ready to get a real SR, I'll inquire here about an intermediate stone for that. Thanx!

 

[Sideburns]

One stroke on each side is good with razors because it avoids raising a burr.

Thank you. And yet, I've never seen a knife do that after being sharpened 5/5.

 

[Legion]

Thank you. And yet, I've never seen a knife do that after being sharpened 5/5.

They are doing it, even if it is too small to see or feel.

When setting the bevel on a razor some guys will do multiple strokes, or half strokes, or circles, on one side before flipping the razor because it is faster. It's not a big deal in the early stages as long as you keep it even on both sides.

 

[Gamma]

Anyone can hone any number of ways. 1/2 strokes, circles, snake strokes, full passes, etc...

I prefer to hone with full passes. 1 stroke each side equals one pass. I don't count but some guys do.
Doesn't matter how the work is done, as long as it gets done.

I'd guess the majority of people find honing 1 and 1 to be an easy way to keep the pressure and work even on both sides. I do. I also find it easier to 'heal the steel' this way. When I watch the striations created by alternating strokes, side to side, I find getting to a smoother and more consistent apex to be easier than when I use other methods.
But there are no rules, anyone can hone how they want to. \

Onions don't care too much about how they feel when they get cut.
The face does care how well the edge cuts whiskers though. Smoothness matters a ton with a razor edge and typical knife sharpening rarely gets an edge to that level of refinement.
If the apex is out of alignment or one side gets more polish than the other, the cutting might not be equal when used right and left handed. If the apex is coarse, then the shave won't be smooth.

In theory it would be possible to hone 100 on one side and 100 on the other.
But I'd bet a dollar if I did that the work won't be all that even.
I used to do 1/2 strokes and I tried circles but found heel leading X strokes done 1:1 work best for me.

And yes, 5 strokes per side with a knife or a razor could possibly form a burr, but a burr or a foil can be formed on a razor by doing 1:1 too. It's harder to do with alternating strokes, but very possible. I've done it more than a few times.

I can get a burr with my chef knife on a 1k in 3-5 strokes. I do it often actually. Pressure matters, steel type matters, stone type matters, length of stroke matters. Lotta things matter. But it happens here very regularly, I use that one knife a lot and it is constantly being touched up on the 1k or 2k. Once in a great while a 3k.

 

[Sideburns]

I've no objection to doing 1/1, I just wanted to know if it mattered, and if so, why.

 

[Tomo]

@Steve56 has a set of these so he may be able to chime in. The jumps are fairly large but they are fast stones so you might be ok. The fact that Shapton sells them as a set suggests that the jumps are in line with the manufacturer’s recommendations. At least for knives which typically use more pressure. Razors maybe slower but you will get there eventually.

 

[Steve56]

Yep, the G7 set with the holder and 3 stones is described as a knife set. I suspect that the 0.44u is intended to set a micro bevel after the 6.7u.

For razors, you would not use the coarse stone for maintenance honing. I’d add the 2.00u (about 8k) and use the 0.87u (about 16.5-17k) to finish since the 0.87u is the stone Shapton recommends as a razor finisher in this series. Both the G7 and the HR series can go in 4x steps pretty easily, 3x steps are what Shapton recommends for the HR seties.

Hope this helps.

 

[Gamma]

forgot, if you wanted to round out the grit progression, the 3 micron and 1.2 micron would suffice numerically. The 1.2 µm jump to the .44 µm works well and a better option than moving from the .85 µm to the .44 µm.

To interject a non-solicited opinion; for the ground work, coarser than 2 micron/8k, I'd opt for full size stones.

Your 6.7 µm stone is in a zone where I'd still be using some decent pressure. It would be a follow up to a 1k so there would be a lot of deep striations to clean up. Even at a 5k equivalent, 3 µm or so, I am still using enough pressure to prefer a wider base to work on.
The 25 µm stone is in early bevel-set zone, similar to the 500k GS which I use semi often to speed up the process but most bevel work I do gets done on a 1k, or 1.5k stone. Again, I am using pressure and would want a wider base.


The G7 stones will get the job done, sure, just saying that if it was me, I'd prefer to execute pressure strokes on a wider bearing surface. I've had several GS7s... btw. Still have the .44 µm.

 

[Alum of Potash]

One reason for staying on the same side in a descending count (5/5, 3/3, 2/2, 1/1…) with knives is that it helps to maintain the angle. With razors, the spine serves as an angle guide, so one can switch from side to side all the time. That said, sometimes I will start out with a few repeated strokes (often termed “half-strokes” here) with a razor that tends to be sluggish at the bevel-setting stage or with a razor that has a chip, as has been mentioned above.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

forgot, if you wanted to round out the grit progression, the 3 micron and 1.2 micron would suffice numerically. The 1.2 µm jump to the .44 µm works well and a better option than moving from the .85 µm to the .44 µm.

To interject a non-solicited opinion; for the ground work, coarser than 2 micron/8k, I'd opt for full size stones.

Have (or had) these all and can confirm what Keith is saying here on grit jumps and stone sizes.

That being said, I prefer the full sized stones (even the sub um ones). If I would have to keep the cost in limits, I'd only get the the 0.44 um G7 and go for full size for the lower grits.

And regardless which ones you get, don't forget to chamfer/round off the edges, otherwise the feedback will be awful and can damage your edges quickly.

 

[Sideburns]

I’d add the 2.00u (about 8k) and use the 0.87u (about 16.5-17k) to finish since the 0.87u is the stone Shapton recommends as a razor finisher in this series.

I'm sure that would be great advice if I had lots of money to spend on this, which I don't. If you had to add exactly one Shapton stone to what I have which one would it be?

 

[Christian1212]

I'm sure that would be great advice if I had lots of money to spend on this, which I don't. If you had to add exactly one Shapton stone to what I have which one would it be?

*before my rant*
Do your own research to find what you want. You don't even know if you like shaving with straights. You have a hard to learn on set up for knives, asking what is the cheapest way to make it a razor set up, for your razor that won't even shave with a good set up.

*begin rant that does not need to be read*

The frustrating thing about this is you went with a set most people don't recommend. Yes 1 person did but bunch of others recommended better options. You tried to save going for a 3 stone set to find out only 1 of those 3 stones are what most people would use (the 2k). The 30k being used by some, but normally by people who use plenty of stones to progress to it. There is not 1 magic stone to make your progression beginner friendly.

Getting the 2 stones recommended by Steve would give you a good set of stones. You can go with just 1 somewhere in the middle, and if you were I would get the 8k. However that is also a large jump to make for a new person on small stones. All of that combined with the razor you are using - you might as well be trying to get a shaving edge with a butter knife.

My honest opinion is for better shaves just look at safety razors. For having fun with straight razors you need to invest in a good razor and strop first. Right now it's like you have a baseball bat and your asking what club you should get before golfing this Saturday.

 

[Legion]

For having fun with straight razors you need to invest in a good razor and strop first. Right now it's like you have a baseball bat and you’re asking what club you should get before golfing this Saturday.

This is actually a very good analogy, and maybe why some people are getting frustrated trying to help.

You keep saying you want to practice honing with your RSO.

If I told you I had a baseball bat, so was just going to stick with that until I got my golf swing down, what would your reaction be?

That is how most of us are reacting to that logic. Yes, you can go through the motions, but without being able to measure results it’s pretty pointless.

Stop putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I'm sure that would be great advice if I had lots of money to spend on this, which I don't. If you had to add exactly one Shapton stone to what I have which one would it be?

Unless you got that 3 stone kit at a very steep discount, you could have got a set of four Shapton Kuromaku or Naniwa Superstones for around the same money, and in grits that would actually be useful to you.

 

[JPO]

I now have a Sharpton Glass Stone 7 set, with three stones and a diamond plate. The stones are marked as 25.0, 6.70 and .44, instead of a number in the thousands as I've seen used here before. Am I right in assuming that the smaller the number, the finer the grit and that the 25.0 stone is only good for knives and setting the bevel on a razor, which is something I hope I don't need to do until I have more experience.
Also, when I learned how to sharpen knives (I never heard the term "hone" used for that until I came here.) aboard ship back in 1972, I was taught to use five strokes on one side of the blade, then five on the other, but everything I've seen here says one and one. I'm presuming that in either case the idea is to keep the number of strokes on each side even, but is there any other reason to prefer one over the other?

I would add a 2 micron (6000) g7 to the progression.
My default shapton glass hr progression is 3k, 6k to 10k (Rock Star).

If I use my g7 stones I use a 2k, 6k, 8k to 0.85. I use my 0.44 for knifes. I don’t own any razors that benefit from using this after the 0.85 micron stone.

 

[Sideburns]

So, your combined advice is to spend a lot of money I don't have. Thanks for nothing!

 

[JPO]

If you had to add exactly one Shapton stone to what I have which one would it be?

I think you got allot of good advice here.

 

[Sideburns]

You keep saying you want to practice honing with your RSO.

Right now, I can use that RSO and get a "shave" that looks like I shaved within a week. If I try honing it and mess it up, who cares? If I can get it to the point that looks like I shaved within the last three days, I'll be ready to buy a proper SR and have a professional make it shave ready for me. And, as long as I can keep it that way, I have enough stones and won't need to buy any more razors. I'm not a collector, I'm not a hobbyist and I'm not chasing the perfect edge or shave. I realize that this is blasphemy to some of you but I understand that perfection is the enemy of good enough, and good enough is all I want. If you can't accept that and help me, don't waste both of our times with useless replies.