Asymmetrical Bevel

[SparkyLB]

On a factory new Dovo Barbarossa, it's obvious under a loupe that the bevel is more acute appears more acute on one side than it does on the other. Under 60X one side reveals a somewhat normal bevel (but significantly wider at the toe). The other side of the blade the bevel is nearly absent.

I was about to reset the bevel with a 1K stone, but I wonder if attempting to reset a bevel on such a blade would reproduce the problem, only taking the asymmetrical bevel to 1K.

I don't have the experience to know if this is a geometry issue, or if it's an edge I can make new with a simple reset.

I can't capture it in a photo.

Final answer, I'm gonna use up my "phone a friend."

@Steve56 @H Brad Boonshaft @Darth Scandalous @Titleist @Doc226 @Empire straights @cotedupy @Tomo

 

[David]

I have a razor very similar to what you describe and it’s a great shaver. The tip of the edge doesn’t care what the rest of the bevel looks like.

 

[Steve56]

Yep, don’t worry about it. The edge is probably not centered on the spine.

 

[SparkyLB]

So a full progression would give me exactly what I already have. It's a decent shaver. Sometimes the shortest answers are the best. Thank you, gentlemen.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Difficult to say without seeing the razor but, sounds like the blade has a slight warp.

Where the bevel is wider at the toe is the concave side, (toe and heel are on the stone in a flat stroke). The narrow bevel is the convex side, (the middle is flat on the stone). If the warp is slight, as most are, the whole bevel is making contact, just not full contact.

Test this with ink and light pressure on a high grit stone. Colored ink is easier to see without magnification.

Use a rolling X, rolling up on the convex side and roll down on the concave side. This technique moves the heel off the stone and hones the whole bevel a bit at a time using one inch or so of the stone near the edge.

Or you can hone the razor in 3 parts. Hone the heel with normal strokes keeping the heel on the stone the whole stroke. Hone the toe with half of the razor off the stone, taking the heel half of the razor off the stone. Hone the middle and blend the two halves with a rolling X stroke.

Inking the bevels will tell you when you are making full contact and how much to roll and which direction, usually just thinking about the roll is enough, your hands do the rest. Ink will verify.

What you don’t want to do is just add more pressure, this will just exacerbate the issue and remove more steel needlessly.

The good news is that most razors have some warp, and a rolling X stroke will easily resolve a slight warp. My finishing strokes on each stone or slurry are always rolling X.

I shave with the heel and toe, so I ensure that the whole heel and toe are fully honed and do extra laps concentrating on them, it does not take much since you are working on a small area.

I ink every razor for the first strokes, I want to know where the razor is making contact and what needs to be done to fully hone the razor, before I waste time and steel honing blind.

Ink takes seconds to apply, Ink is cheap, ink is your friend, Ink will improve your honing.

 

[RayClem]

Many blades are not quite straight. As long as the warp is not large, the razor should work just fine. You might want to try Dr. Matt's "tap and wobble" test to check for flatness.

If you find the blade is warped, there are some things you can do to correct the issue.

 

[Titleist]

On a factory new Dovo Barbarossa, it's obvious under a loupe that the bevel is more acute appears more acute on one side than it does on the other. Under 60X one side reveals a somewhat normal bevel (but significantly wider at the toe). The other side of the blade the bevel is nearly absent.

I was about to reset the bevel with a 1K stone, but I wonder if attempting to reset a bevel on such a blade would reproduce the problem, only taking the asymmetrical bevel to 1K.

I don't have the experience to know if this is a geometry issue, or if it's an edge I can make new with a simple reset.

I can't capture it in a photo.

Final answer, I'm gonna use up my "phone a friend."

@Steve56 @H Brad Boonshaft @Darth Scandalous @Titleist @Doc226 @Empire straights @cotedupy @Tomo

Thanks for including the "dunce" in the class of geniuses ..... my ego has been properly massaged.

As for my answer ..... What those other guys said works for me.

 

[SparkyLB]

Thanks again everyone. Yes, @RayClem, I've seen that video just a few weeks ago. If I recall, Dr. Matt intentionally removed material on the spine to end that wobble. I could be thinking of a different video, but I'll watch it again. Thanks @H Brad Boonshaft for the detailed explanation. I've never attempted a rolling X stroke, but as you say, a lime green sharpie will tell me if I can at least get the bevel to appear differently--for the better--with just a few strokes, indicating potential success, or not, very early--well before I ruin the SR.

@Titleist, your good looks are beaten only with your modesty. Call it what you will, but you're one of those whom I consider very knowledgeable.

 

[Titleist]

Thanks again everyone. Yes, @RayClem, I've seen that video just a few weeks ago. If I recall, Dr. Matt intentionally removed material on the spine to end that wobble. I could be thinking of a different video, but I'll watch it again. Thanks @H Brad Boonshaft for the detailed explanation. I've never attempted a rolling X stroke, but as you say, a lime green sharpie will tell me if I can at least get the bevel to appear differently--for the better--with just a few strokes, indicating potential success, or not, very early--well before I ruin the SR.

@Titleist, your good looks are beaten only with your modesty. Call it what you will, but you're one of those whom I consider very knowledgeable.

Thank you @SparkyLB, I'm humbled by your kindness.

 

[Steve56]

This may help. A Sharpie is your friend, ink the bevel and the spine the first time on new-to-you razors. It also helps to mike the spine thickness above the heel, center, and toe.

Next up, properly made smiling blades wobble, if the bevel angle stays the same along the edge. It has to because ‘smiling’ means that the blade is not as wide at the toe/heel as in the middle. We all know that if two razors have the same bevel angle, ann one is 5/8 and one 6/8, the 5/8 will have a thinner spine. So a smiling blade is really just a ‘variable width’ blade and has to have a non-straight spine to keep the bevel angle the same.

You can grind the spine flat and reset the bevel, but all you will have done is removed the smile and quite possibly ruined your razor or destroyed it’s value.

In the photo below, you will see a tapered spine. This is from the honer pulling the heel off the hone immediately just like most YouTube honers show. See diagram ‘A’. Over time, the spine gets thinner except over the heel. Miking the spine will tell you this if you can’t see itit by eye. The best way to deal with these is just hone them way that they’ve been honed for decades. If you try to hone it with the thicker spine above the heel on. the hone, it will tilt the heel up and start cutting a new bevel at the toe. Where the two bevels meet, the edge will not develop properly. You can see this with a loupe.

Like a smile, you can hone the spine flat on these, and likely ruin your razor or at least put an immense amount of wear on it.

Hope that this clears up some of the things that you will see learning to hone non-perfect razors (which is 99% of them, lol). The lesson to be learned is that honing perfect razors is boring and you can’t learn much from them!

 

[Steve56]

My childish diagrams need some work, but I hope the meaning comes across.

 

[SparkyLB]

Not only do they express what you explain, but to me they make perfect sense.

 

[Steve56]

Thank you Larry. In the first image the tang should be on the left in the lower of the ‘Sharpie’ illustrations, reflecting the other side of the blade. Oh well.

 

[SparkyLB]

Just in the recon stages of an endeavor I'm going to either leave alone, or try to tackle. If for no other reason, to show myself that I can do this. As mentioned, with ink it will only take very mild honing, removing scant amounts of steel--a half-dozen strokes to see if I can progress. It's enough to encourage, or dissuade, without potential to make matters worse.

I inked the edge completely and took a measurement. The spine at the heel is 4.7 mm. At the toe it's 4.5 mm.

With my JNAT finisher, I honed under running water using pressure adequate only to remove sharpie ink, for about 15 min's.

On the show side the bevel is more consistent and pronounced, still the smallest bevel height of all my SRs at ca. .25mm. At the toe end, for the last 2 mm, the bevel height spikes to .65 mm. On the heel end, it gradually diminishes, but is present/barely visible.

On the non-show side, the bevel is less uniform and scant. Only ca. .15mm high uniformly, except for at the heel and toe. It completely diminishes at the heel (no bevel present). Like the show side, the bevel spikes in height to the same degree at the toe end, for the same length (the last 2mm).

I realize that talking me through this using the written word would be more tedious than an appendectomy, I'm only posting this information in the event that it sheds some new light.

I've already learned quite a bit. What I've gathered, is the spine is tapered, causing the heel edge to not make contact with the stone on one side, and only slightly making contact on the opposite heel side of the blade. Also, this tapering is causing the edge to be MORE in contact with the stone, causing the bevel to rise at the very tip. (that didn't sound right)

The discrepancy in bevel height from one side to the other (show side vs. non) is attributable to the edge not being centered on the spine.

Do you gentlemen agree with what's in blue? Am I missing anything?

Thank you again.

 

[Steve56]

If the bevel is wider on one side versus the other, you could try a layer of tape on the wide side only, and reset the bevel on wide side. It won’t help in terms of shaving, but might be an interesting exercise for you.

 

[SparkyLB]

Thank you, Steve!

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Post a photo of both sides

 

[Steve56]

Yep, that would help

 

[SparkyLB]

 

[Steve56]

The bevel looks fairly even.

Send it to me if you want, and I’ll take a look st it and hone it for you.