Looking at that razor, I just get a good edge on it and use it. Looks like it would be an easy honing to me.
Asymmetrical Bevel
- Thread starter SparkyLB
- Start date
Thanks for including the "dunce" in the class of geniuses ..... my ego has been properly massaged.
^+1 on this ^. I certainly don't deserve such elated company!
FWIW though... I can only echo what others have said. I have razors with way more uneven bevels than yours, and which shave and hone perfectly. I think you should be just fine there.
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p.s. Excellent post with the diagrams @Steve56. Thank you for that.
- Thread starter
- #23
Is the presumption to keep the angle of the blade at the fixed point for the entire stroke?
If I understand correctly, in fig. A, this will address most of the edge, but not allow the taper at the heel end of the spine to further influence the toe issue. In fig. B, you're addressing specifically he lower, toe end of the blade, again, prohibiting the destructive influence of the thicker spine at the heel to convey its influence.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Bad image on my part in ‘B’ - if the spine above the heel stays on the stone a new, different bevel will be cut starting at the toe. The thicker spine above the heel will tilt the heel up.
- Thread starter
- #25
Might something like this work at all? I'd keep the offending portion of the spine off the stone but hit the full length of the bevel for the entirety of the stroke, keeping the angle of the blade fixed.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Exactly. When a razor has had decades of wear resulting in a given wear pattern, the best thing is just to keep honing it like it has been honed. Trying to fix a century of wear just gets you a world of hurt.
- Thread starter
- #27
Thank you kindly, Steve.
- Thread starter
- #28
On post 25 I made a rudimentary drawing on how I might hold this razor to hone it. The issue with the SR is that the "heel end" of the spine is a bit wider than the toe end. That was leaving me with no bevel at the heel, and an exaggerated bevel at the toe.
I've been honing on water only making certain that the wide spine area stays off the stone. At first no great changes, but on a finishing JNAT under running water only metal seems to be removed very slowly. (I know, a groundbreaking discovery!). I'm seeing no more polishing of the toe above the normal normal bevel height (a good thing), and I'm also starting to see a bevel being formed at the heel--another good thing. Lastly, and this will take more time, the bevel that runs from heel to toe is uniform, and is hinting at becoming more pronounced. On the show side, its clearly visible without a loupe. On the opposite side, not as much, but it's getting better.
Thank you so much to everyone who replied. To those who said, "leave it" you weren't wrong. I'm a bit impulsive, and this served as a bit of validation, down the, "you can do it!" road.
I came into this issue without a clue. Through your advice I learned what to look for and perhaps how to address it--and it's working. The blade was a decent shaver before this thread, but it's a far cry better now.
Thanks again, all. I'm going to call this my first obstacle. Disaster averted. Enemy neutralized.
I've been honing on water only making certain that the wide spine area stays off the stone. At first no great changes, but on a finishing JNAT under running water only metal seems to be removed very slowly. (I know, a groundbreaking discovery!). I'm seeing no more polishing of the toe above the normal normal bevel height (a good thing), and I'm also starting to see a bevel being formed at the heel--another good thing. Lastly, and this will take more time, the bevel that runs from heel to toe is uniform, and is hinting at becoming more pronounced. On the show side, its clearly visible without a loupe. On the opposite side, not as much, but it's getting better.
Thank you so much to everyone who replied. To those who said, "leave it" you weren't wrong. I'm a bit impulsive, and this served as a bit of validation, down the, "you can do it!" road.
I came into this issue without a clue. Through your advice I learned what to look for and perhaps how to address it--and it's working. The blade was a decent shaver before this thread, but it's a far cry better now.
Thanks again, all. I'm going to call this my first obstacle. Disaster averted. Enemy neutralized.
Just a quick piece of advice: Next time if you want a straight bevel try a Wacker or a Koraat. They are perfectly grounded.
My Dovos and Austs have varying bevel widths, even my Filarmonicas are like that. I don’t love it, but they shave perfectly.
My Dovos and Austs have varying bevel widths, even my Filarmonicas are like that. I don’t love it, but they shave perfectly.
- Thread starter
- #30
Definitely a YMMV scenario. I have 3 Dovos, this was the only one with an issue. I love Wackers, but cant get the one I want at this time--The Chevalier. I have one Aust which is also ground to perfection. No experience with Koraat, but cosmetically they are beautiful. Thanks, macintoshBR!
The heel edge is not making contact, so most folks add more pressure, but where is the edge making contact? At the toe. So, when you add pressure, the toe gets ground more.
More pressure is not the answer, it never is.
When you hone the toe half of the razor, with the heel hanging off the edge, it allows the toe half of the razor to make full contact. You do not want to make straight strokes, or you will remove more steel in the middle and cause a frown, especially if you add pressure.
So, with the heel off the stone as in you diagram, make a straight stroke halfway down the stone and at the half-way point make a slight arc towards the bottom right corner. It does not take much ¼ to ½ inch of an arc will rotate the pressure from the middle to the toe, without you having to think about it. It is a slight rolling X. A Rolling X, rolls the pressure across the stone so you are honing about 1 inch of the razor at a time, not the full 3 inches.
Then blend the heel half and the toe half with a full, rolling X stroke. Always finish with a rolling X. The roll, lifting or dropping the heel or toe and using the right hand, one inch of the stone near the edge will get all the bevel honed evenly.
You must figure out if you must roll up or down. One side is opposite from the other because of the warp.
Ink will tell you when you are making full even contact with the edge, do not add pressure.
More pressure is not the answer, it never is.
When you hone the toe half of the razor, with the heel hanging off the edge, it allows the toe half of the razor to make full contact. You do not want to make straight strokes, or you will remove more steel in the middle and cause a frown, especially if you add pressure.
So, with the heel off the stone as in you diagram, make a straight stroke halfway down the stone and at the half-way point make a slight arc towards the bottom right corner. It does not take much ¼ to ½ inch of an arc will rotate the pressure from the middle to the toe, without you having to think about it. It is a slight rolling X. A Rolling X, rolls the pressure across the stone so you are honing about 1 inch of the razor at a time, not the full 3 inches.
Then blend the heel half and the toe half with a full, rolling X stroke. Always finish with a rolling X. The roll, lifting or dropping the heel or toe and using the right hand, one inch of the stone near the edge will get all the bevel honed evenly.
You must figure out if you must roll up or down. One side is opposite from the other because of the warp.
Ink will tell you when you are making full even contact with the edge, do not add pressure.
- Thread starter
- #32
Thank you again. Something in the back of my head was telling me that my "discovery" had me holding the blade at too acute an angle with the stone, almost to be honing it parallel with the stone--and I know that's not good. You told me about the rolling X stroke early on in this thread. But I'm apprehensive. Having never done it, this foreign action is a bit off-putting. It's either now or later, but I WILL take your advice and learn this rolling X. I will come to accept it's what needs to be done. I have been using ink as you said. On the show side, the ink shows that my bevel is making contact exactly where it needs to--on the show side. But my parallel strokes are probably creating damage that I'm unaware of? The other side, it's improving, but not to the degree that I could get if I just follow your instructions.
I suppose it's like learning to play a song on the piano or guitar, slow it down until you can do it perfectly, speed will come later.
@H Brad Boonshaft, I appreciate you sticking with me and being patient. I know it's frustrating when you tell a person how to do something 3 times and they continue to sidestep your instructions. I'm going to learn this no matter what it takes. After some time I'm going to post pics of my success.
I suppose it's like learning to play a song on the piano or guitar, slow it down until you can do it perfectly, speed will come later.
@H Brad Boonshaft, I appreciate you sticking with me and being patient. I know it's frustrating when you tell a person how to do something 3 times and they continue to sidestep your instructions. I'm going to learn this no matter what it takes. After some time I'm going to post pics of my success.
The rolling X is tricky because you are rolling, up or down and at the same time homing in an X pattern to roll the pressure from heel to toe.
Where guys get into trouble is over thinking the roll and the X. Most use too much roll, lift or drop the heel or get confused on which side need to lift or drop. And use too much diagonal X stroke from corner to corner, so the heel falls off the stone within the first inch of travel. The heel never gets honed.
Think of the rolling X as a slight, tiny pressure shift, so you are only honing one inch of the edge at a time on one inch of stone near the edge.
Visualize a marble or ball bearing on the razor belly and as you go down the stone, roll the ball smoothly and evenly from heel to toe. That shifts the pressure from heel to toe. The amount of lift or drop is less than a 32nd of an inch, you almost only need to think about it and your hands do it.
Again, Ink will tell you.
The X is also minimal. Start with the toe end near the upper left corner and end with the toe end of the razor about a ½ inch from the left edge, this will keep most of the razor on the stone for the whole stroke. The X part is only about a ½ inch arc
That little bit of arc will roll the pressure from heel to toe.
Practice the rolling X on a high grit stone and keep inking the bevel. Look at your bevels after each stroke. A wide tip sharpie will ink the whole bevel in one swipe, colored ink is much easier to see, I like red or blue.
Where guys get into trouble is over thinking the roll and the X. Most use too much roll, lift or drop the heel or get confused on which side need to lift or drop. And use too much diagonal X stroke from corner to corner, so the heel falls off the stone within the first inch of travel. The heel never gets honed.
Think of the rolling X as a slight, tiny pressure shift, so you are only honing one inch of the edge at a time on one inch of stone near the edge.
Visualize a marble or ball bearing on the razor belly and as you go down the stone, roll the ball smoothly and evenly from heel to toe. That shifts the pressure from heel to toe. The amount of lift or drop is less than a 32nd of an inch, you almost only need to think about it and your hands do it.
Again, Ink will tell you.
The X is also minimal. Start with the toe end near the upper left corner and end with the toe end of the razor about a ½ inch from the left edge, this will keep most of the razor on the stone for the whole stroke. The X part is only about a ½ inch arc
That little bit of arc will roll the pressure from heel to toe.
Practice the rolling X on a high grit stone and keep inking the bevel. Look at your bevels after each stroke. A wide tip sharpie will ink the whole bevel in one swipe, colored ink is much easier to see, I like red or blue.
- Thread starter
- #34
Just attaching my results as I go for record-keeping purposes. I see the middle of the blade is receiving the most contact--evenly on the show side, very unevenly on the opposite side. This stroke was as consistent as I could muster, under very light running water, I started with the offending portion of the spine (the 25% or so closest to the heel) off the stone, with the blade perpendicular to the stone. Using the full length of the stone, rotating the toe end downwards towards the last 1/10 of the stroke.
I'm baffled by the uneven attrition of the sharpie mark on the opposite side in the middle.
Despite keeping the wider spine off the stone, there continues to be an inordinate loss of steel at the toe on the non-show side.
I'm baffled by the uneven attrition of the sharpie mark on the opposite side in the middle.
Despite keeping the wider spine off the stone, there continues to be an inordinate loss of steel at the toe on the non-show side.
Is that a single lap on a high grit synthetic?
The razor has a warp, likely the face is slightly convex and the back concave, roll accordingly.
To hone the toe of the concave back, you may need to have less of the toe on the stone, maybe one inch, ink will tell you.
The heel is honed, heel forward at about a 45-degree angle and also may need some rolling.
Toes almost always need some rolling up, to hone the whole toe at the tip, sometimes quite a bit of lift 1/8th inch or so.
Looks like there is ink on the bevel of the back below where ink is removed at the belly. This is why colored ink is easier to see.
If so, you are using too much pressure, flexing the blade. That blade will flex easily. But that ink removal looks like slurry.
Practice the rolling X with a clean stone, on the bench on a holder to lift off the bench.
The trick to honing, especially when learning is to eliminate as many variables as possible. Handholding, running water you are adding way more variables, trying to learn a new stroke with a problematic razor. First learn the stroke.
Not sure there is a benefit from hand holding, if you want less pressure, use less pressure.
The razor has a warp, likely the face is slightly convex and the back concave, roll accordingly.
To hone the toe of the concave back, you may need to have less of the toe on the stone, maybe one inch, ink will tell you.
The heel is honed, heel forward at about a 45-degree angle and also may need some rolling.
Toes almost always need some rolling up, to hone the whole toe at the tip, sometimes quite a bit of lift 1/8th inch or so.
Looks like there is ink on the bevel of the back below where ink is removed at the belly. This is why colored ink is easier to see.
If so, you are using too much pressure, flexing the blade. That blade will flex easily. But that ink removal looks like slurry.
Practice the rolling X with a clean stone, on the bench on a holder to lift off the bench.
The trick to honing, especially when learning is to eliminate as many variables as possible. Handholding, running water you are adding way more variables, trying to learn a new stroke with a problematic razor. First learn the stroke.
Not sure there is a benefit from hand holding, if you want less pressure, use less pressure.
- Thread starter
- #36
Thank you again. No sir. It is my JNAT base stone (I believe it's finer than Tomo slurry) and running water. No slurry. I'll work on my technique. I think I've been told everything I need to know. Now I need to put it to practice.
- Thread starter
- #37
There might be something to this Rolling X! I lifted the heel on the fwd stroke and gently allowed it to lay flat on the way back, only at the end of the back lap. I feel like I can get comfortable with this over time. The result looks satisfactory from where I’m sitting.
- Thread starter
- #38
Non-show side.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Yep. With SR you cannot let pressure do your honing work for you like you can with knives and tools.
I think it is important to keep in mind how these razors are honed from the factory, and how grinders like this one from Revisor in Solingen (and dovo) hone a razor. I am not saying this is the way to do it
New razors usually come with a little frown. Part of the spine might not have seen much contact with the spinning disk they use to set the initial bevel because they come in at an angle. If you are not aware of this and "ride" into it on your stone, you loose contact with the heel, a you get more hone wear near the tip. You basically mess up the geometry. Don't ask me how i know
Allot of new razors come with "minor" geometry issues. You can work with the geometry and gradually correct the razor each time you hone the razor, or you can just do all the correction when you first get the razor. German and French school of thought vs American is probably different here. It is also the reason why dovo's 5/8 razors now are smaller as compared to older models. It is after all a "straight razor" right.
Yes i agree, just do a better job grinding that thing!!
New razors usually come with a little frown. Part of the spine might not have seen much contact with the spinning disk they use to set the initial bevel because they come in at an angle. If you are not aware of this and "ride" into it on your stone, you loose contact with the heel, a you get more hone wear near the tip. You basically mess up the geometry. Don't ask me how i know
Allot of new razors come with "minor" geometry issues. You can work with the geometry and gradually correct the razor each time you hone the razor, or you can just do all the correction when you first get the razor. German and French school of thought vs American is probably different here. It is also the reason why dovo's 5/8 razors now are smaller as compared to older models. It is after all a "straight razor" right.
Yes i agree, just do a better job grinding that thing!!
