True. But a vendor did reply, opened the door to Pandora's box, so to speak. Dialogue was created on how and what is the Mason/Dixon line that is crossed from Artisan soap maker to Commercial mass production of soap. If it is readily available to the public, whether in small quantities at a time, or massed produced in the thousands of tubs or jars or pucks does it really matter on how we, the consumer define them? We have the vendor, Stone Cottage Soaps make a statement and declaration to one of the posts that not all artisans are equal. We can say the same for the commercial big soap producers as well. My intentions were not to hijack the thread, but just a response and my curiosity on finding out about a specific artisan soap maker that I had the pleasure of meeting and purchasing his products. My apologies on doing an about face to the OP's original intent......
Artisan to Commercial soap maker
- Thread starter freebird0064
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Oh no worries @GlazedBoker. I was making a general comment, not directed at you. Lol...I just got a new iPad this week and am getting use to it. Ugh. I've made more typos, goofed up IM's, PM's, and emails than I can shake a stick at. Anyway, no worries from my end, its all good Sir.
As far as the OP's question, I had made a somewhat tongue in cheek response that the taxman makes that decision for us. I agree with many posts...if you find a soap you like who cares what size of organization makes it. I certainly don't.
For what its worth, in my own business (it has nothing to do with the shaving universe) I felt like I went from a small business to a large business when I found myself hiring people that were using the employment my business provides to support families. It added...a weight...to my business that wasn't there before. I guess that's when I felt I crossed that line from little to big.
Cheers!
As far as the OP's question, I had made a somewhat tongue in cheek response that the taxman makes that decision for us. I agree with many posts...if you find a soap you like who cares what size of organization makes it. I certainly don't.
For what its worth, in my own business (it has nothing to do with the shaving universe) I felt like I went from a small business to a large business when I found myself hiring people that were using the employment my business provides to support families. It added...a weight...to my business that wasn't there before. I guess that's when I felt I crossed that line from little to big.
Cheers!
Point well taken. May you continue in success and growth for yourself and those that depend on you for sustainability......
Regards,Gus
I absolutely agree with you, to me its definitely more about how its made than how its sold. If stirling was sold at walgreens/cvs with an untouched formula, it'd 100% be artisan.
The more I think about it the more I realize how much the internet has blurred the lines. 30 years ago most of us probably associated an "artisan", regardless of the product, with someone that made and sold goods locally. Advertising was quite expensive in the good old days so it was generally more of a local word-of-mouth environment.
Nowadays with the internet someone working out of their garage can literally have a worldwide customer base if they have a website and some exposure in online communities.
I think the definition of artisan has to be viewed through a much different lens now than it was years ago, at least for those of us over 40.
Nowadays with the internet someone working out of their garage can literally have a worldwide customer base if they have a website and some exposure in online communities.
I think the definition of artisan has to be viewed through a much different lens now than it was years ago, at least for those of us over 40.
+1 It was a small world before, now it's even smaller with the advent of technology such as the Internet and Social Media groups.....
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The way I see it is if you have a business where you make and sell a product ( any product )to the public, you have a Commercial business. How you go about making that product may be defined as Artisan. That does not take away the fact that it is still a commecial business. Especially if it is your main source of income. It apears some don't agree with this line of thought.
I didn't mean to insult anyone or belittle there business. I know there are a lot of vendors that make very good soaps as well as some long established companies. Who I'm sure at some point started out small too.
This thead started 'cause of a random thought. Then it kind of took a wrong turn and got personel.
I didn't mean to insult anyone or belittle there business. I know there are a lot of vendors that make very good soaps as well as some long established companies. Who I'm sure at some point started out small too.
This thead started 'cause of a random thought. Then it kind of took a wrong turn and got personel.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Just for a different perspective, maybe the dividing line is not size but knowledge of the product and quality control. We'd all like to think that artisans have more flexibility than large commercial soap makers and could parlay that into a superior product, but in my experience, the opposite is true. The only two in-production artisan soaps that I'd currently re-purchase are MdC and SdM.
As David said, not all soap makers are the same, but here's a list of problems that I have experienced with artisan soaps that I have never experienced even once with commercial soaps:
- Products sold as soaps that are so runny they must be used as creams or cured, batch-to-batch inconsistency. That's water at soap prices.
- Burning, tingling etc.
- Scents so strong that I can taste them from breathing and that I must cut them with unscented soap or air out for months.
- Unpleasant, crude, and strange scents, pretty much confined to North American artisans, US and Canadian. Scented XPEC may be an exception lol. And your nose may vary.
So, if I encounter one of those 4 issues I can say (so far) with 100% certainty that the soap is not a commercial one.
Cheers, Steve
As David said, not all soap makers are the same, but here's a list of problems that I have experienced with artisan soaps that I have never experienced even once with commercial soaps:
- Products sold as soaps that are so runny they must be used as creams or cured, batch-to-batch inconsistency. That's water at soap prices.
- Burning, tingling etc.
- Scents so strong that I can taste them from breathing and that I must cut them with unscented soap or air out for months.
- Unpleasant, crude, and strange scents, pretty much confined to North American artisans, US and Canadian. Scented XPEC may be an exception lol. And your nose may vary.
So, if I encounter one of those 4 issues I can say (so far) with 100% certainty that the soap is not a commercial one.
Cheers, Steve
To be fair, though, of the 4 issues listed, only one is actually an issue that goes to quality control or poor "manufacturing," and that is the batch-to-batch inconsistency.
Surely you can't blame the soapmaker if you have burning or tingling, as those are most likely caused by allergies that YOU have. Unless the soap burns everybody, or was made with general disregard for the safety of the shaver, that's not the soapmaker's fault. As for the last two, scents are extremely personal. What is unpleasant to you may be manna from heaven to somebody else. I do think a soapmaker has a responsibility to let buyers know if their soap is very strongly scented, so people who don't like strong scents can stay away.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
I don't agree, but I do respect your opinion.
However, what I posted is still factually accurate.
Cheers, Steve
However, what I posted is still factually accurate.
Cheers, Steve
I have never seen any company post that their products were strongly scented and I don't think it is up to them and to us to post that on our websites. We all scent our products at levels we think are going to be appropriate. I understand your concern but I just don't happen to agree. If a customer has a concern about that or anything else then they can contact the company and express their concern and have their questions addressed. The problem is that they don't do that they then complain starting their sentence with "I thought it was going to be... blank, blank, blank" about whatever issue they have. If they had asked the question before they placed their order then they would have avoided the problem.
I guess the question I have about the artisan soap makes is: Who or what regulates your industry?
If you're talking about soap products that have no descriptive terms modifying them such as "moisturizing soap" and they are called just "soap" then they are not governed by the F.D.A. or any other government agency and as such they are not required to follow any regulations such as the F.D.A. requirement to list ingredients from largest amount to smallest amount in that order and anything below 1% can be listed in whatever order you wish. However, most artisan soapmakers do list their ingredients with that in mind and follow, to some extent, the F.D.A. listing requirements. When a soap for shaving is made, it is listed as a "shaving soap" and must follow the rules listed above. Shaving Cream, of course, follows these regulations as it is a cosmetic product. As I have said numerous times, it is so important to read the ingredients list of any product you purchase and have, at least, some basic understanding of these requirements so that you can make the best possible choices of products for you to use!
I was initially hooked on trying artisan soaps because it felt great to support small, local businesses. It's something that I haven't experienced in decades and the trend will only continue as massive corporations continue to oust small businesses. I had the greatest success with factory soaps now so that's mainly what I use at the moment but I'll still explore new soapmakers and continue buying from some of my favorites. I agree that it's not worth it to buy a soap solely because of who makes it - a good soap is a good soap in spite of this.
What ever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it"? I can agree with some of your points but I think that you're overstating the value changing formulae. Making soap isn't a tremendously complicated process and the general concepts have remained the same at least since the inception of commercial soapmaking. What are artisans doing now that drastically sets them apart from commercial soapmakers?
I used artisan soaps exclusively when I started out but after finally trying some factory creams, I found something that worked perfectly for me. There are still some artisan soaps that are quite exceptional but ultimately, they only have a marginal utility over my more standard soaps. I am also completely averse to change for the sake of change and I would be happy if my current favorites were still using the same formula 50 years from now. They already work extremely well for me so adding 2% glycerin and 2% less water or tweaking a few ingredients likely isn't going to impress me or add anything of value.
shavefan
I’m not a fan
I find it hard to argue with this...
I shaved with whatever cartridge and whatever canned stuff was easily available for many years, decades. I really had no issues, ever. My skin never caught fire, never broke out, face didn't melt.... Pretty much the same results as I get with $20 artisan soap.
However, I do enjoy supporting small businesses and the hunt for the better or best ingredients, performance, scent. What it boils down to, for me, is that shaving has evolved into something I never thought much about and just did as a matter of course, to a hobby that I very much enjoy. Its become a pleasant distraction from the mundane.
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I would argue Artisan is usually small batches. If a company is involved, it would be a small population actually producing the product, possibly less than ~15 people when testing new product, making beta recipes, and pushing them to sell (marketing, etc) are all involved. Usually these people are related or in a family. Actual production of the product might be less than ~100 people making in total, which would include packaging, labeling, testing, operating social media contacts, etc.
Artisan products I believe have a strong survivor's bias. Any Artisan product that has "made it" in B&B would be better quality than Commercial products "usually" (YMMV!) simply because Commercial products have other things going for them (staying power, excellent advertisements, "good enough" quality) that aren't necesarily reliant on the excellence of their soap. Let's take marketing aspects for example. An Artisan's marketing is mostly word of mouth, which relies exclusively on each person trying and then saying how much quality is in the product. It boils down marketing directly to product quality. This is not necessarily true for gels for example, which can be marketed on TV, and does not need to be associated with excellent quality so long as it is "good enough".
I would like also to introduce a third quality, Luxury, which can be produced in commercial sizes but meet high quality standards for a higher price point. I guess these would be like MdC and Nuevo.
Artisan products I believe have a strong survivor's bias. Any Artisan product that has "made it" in B&B would be better quality than Commercial products "usually" (YMMV!) simply because Commercial products have other things going for them (staying power, excellent advertisements, "good enough" quality) that aren't necesarily reliant on the excellence of their soap. Let's take marketing aspects for example. An Artisan's marketing is mostly word of mouth, which relies exclusively on each person trying and then saying how much quality is in the product. It boils down marketing directly to product quality. This is not necessarily true for gels for example, which can be marketed on TV, and does not need to be associated with excellent quality so long as it is "good enough".
I would like also to introduce a third quality, Luxury, which can be produced in commercial sizes but meet high quality standards for a higher price point. I guess these would be like MdC and Nuevo.
Thank You
Ditto. I think many of the old shaving soaps (e.g. Yardley) were at least as good as today’s best.
Everybody has to remember that what one desires in a soap or cream is going to be different than another's desires. There are no, Artisans are better...or Commercially produced products are worse. In everything...to each his own...YMMV...when in Rome. Okay that last one doesn't fit, but you get the idea. 
I think this thread has kind of gone off the rails and would remind you all the OP asked the following:
This thread has gone from identifying the differences of an Artisan and Commercial soap makers to "_____ soap is the best." I appreciate all of you keeping this discussion civil, but I can also sense some tension in some of these replies. Keep the discussion going, but remember, we all have something to share and one's opinion is just that...one's opinion. Thank you all...and if anyone has a question...please do not hesitate to contact me.
I think this thread has kind of gone off the rails and would remind you all the OP asked the following:This thread has gone from identifying the differences of an Artisan and Commercial soap makers to "_____ soap is the best." I appreciate all of you keeping this discussion civil, but I can also sense some tension in some of these replies. Keep the discussion going, but remember, we all have something to share and one's opinion is just that...one's opinion. Thank you all...and if anyone has a question...please do not hesitate to contact me.
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