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Are We Luddites?

Mr. Shavington

Knows Hot Turkish Toilets
This is going to be a bit of a ramble but I’m posting it wondering how each of us feels about the way things have changed in the world - what we like better and what we don’t. My sense is that many of us here are of a certain age and are also more likely to value some of the older ways of doing things (like traditional wet shaving) but I’m sure we still have different attitudes to change.

I hope that I am somewhat keeping up with the world and will not become one of those old people who are no longer able to function fully in the modern world. I at least grew up in a world with IT and was still in my twenties when the internet became widely available so, unlike my parents, I can use internet and emails and a smartphone, make things work without excessive swearing, and not fall victim to scams. My parents have disposed of their mobile phone and stopped using email because of scams - though it cuts them out of many things like many banking services or anything that requires ID verification and that’s a loss for them. I hope I can live better in the world when I am in my eighties.

I got used to streaming TV (which I like better), not having a telephone land line (I probably prefer this too), shopping on the toilet (fabulous but rather expensive), video calls on the toilet (truly a space age luxury), satellite navigation in-car and on foot (how did we manage before?), parking cameras all round my car. All very good.

But some recent and ongoing changes work less well for me. For example, I’ve noticed very recently that new cars do not have CD players now, and in fact home CD players and CDs themselves are starting to disappear from the market. We’re supposed to switch to audio streaming services but the quality is not the same and without a physical CD I don’t trust that any music files I buy will still be supported file formats in years to come. I don’t think this is better, though perhaps younger consumers prefer the convenience of having their music available via all their electronic devices together with a streaming service or cloud storage subscription, even if the music might not sound quite as good.

Other things that don’t work as well as the old ways? Well, pen and paper is still much more efficient than anything invented since. Physical books are much nicer and more engaging than e-books. Banking and anything else that requires a password or secondary verification is incredibly inefficient - try changing your address or (heaven forbid) changing your phone number, or accessing an account you haven’t used for a few years. I do not want a battery electric vehicle. I still don’t like losing manual car gearboxes and I think my car is hobbled by its modern dual-clutch auto box (dispensing with a gearbox altogether is one definite advantage of electric cars, though).

And shaving? Well, I think that’s another of those things like music where convenience has outweighed quality, cost, and pleasure. And like auto car gearboxes it saves users from having to learn a skill and is another thing that has been dumbed-down for the busy and inattentive masses.

Or am I just a luddite, pushing back against change that I should embrace, and gradually excluding myself from the modern world? What about you?
 
It all depends, YMMV, and all that stuff.

I (47) am a more traditional guy myself. I believe I don't own anything unless I have it in my hot little hands. I will never subscribe to something I could once own outright. I will hold on to my 2017 Subaru without all that annoying, temperamental, expensive to fix Eyesight stuff for as long as I possibly can. I'm stubborn like that. But also, I have to realize that I have no right to complain because I still have a choice to use said technology or not. I just choose to stop using it. Case in point, I had a multi-hundreds-game streak going on Wordle, but as soon as they required me to create an account to see my stats, I quit cold turkey. Oh well, it's just a game.
 

blethenstrom

Born to häckla
I do not think you are weird or strange for not engaging is some of the new things. I think we live in a convenience and immediate gratification type society and that is effecting everything the the OP spoke of. Now am I Luddite to think that the washing machine is evil and we should wash our clothes by hand? No I am not saying that at all! The washing machine is a great invention. However, I am more concerned about skills that are to a large extent being lost due to the convenience and immediate gratification mindset.

For example, Friday last week there was a car with a flat tire in our parking lot. The car had 3-4 people in it and I think it was one young man and two women. I was heading out on my regular lunch time walk and I asked them if they would like some help to change the tire. They answered no thank you and that they had called the insurance company and someone was coming to replace it. When I returned from my walk there was a van there and a guy who was changing the tire. There was a time when changing a tire was common knowledge to do, at least for guys, but now I see this kind of thing with "common knowledge" things more and more often. We trade in our skills for convenience.

This mentality and reliance on others to do these simple tasks can really become a detriment to us all. Let's say power goes out in a larger city for a couple of weeks. What do you think would happen? It is even hard to fathom the effects of that. We are so dependent on electricity and other things, because we have not had the need to learn how to deal with it if we were without.

Am I a Luddite? Not necessarily it its truest sense. Do I think that things are made better by hand? Sometimes. Do I think that some things are better made by machines? Sometimes. I do think it is important not to forget our basic skills even if we can do things the easy way.
 
I suspect many of us here straddle the line between the traditional and the contemporary, particularly in the technological sphere.

Streaming services for example I find can be both a boon and a drag. The ability to find, on Soundcloud for example, a random old song song that I just heard in a TV advert is fantastic. However, it is annoying that the owners of a streaming service e.g. Amazon Prime can update their T&C's whenever they want and that your subscription no longer means "advert free" unless of course you pay extra.

"Renting" a service is often convenient but someone else gets to decide how the service evolves and that evolution always seems to cost us more...
 

Mr. Shavington

Knows Hot Turkish Toilets
I suspect many of us here straddle the line between the traditional and the contemporary, particularly in the technological sphere.

Streaming services for example I find can be both a boon and a drag. The ability to find, on Soundcloud for example, a random old song song that I just heard in a TV advert is fantastic. However, it is annoying that the owners of a streaming service e.g. Amazon Prime can update their T&C's whenever they want and that your subscription no longer means "advert free" unless of course you pay extra.

"Renting" a service is often convenient but someone else gets to decide how the service evolves and that evolution always seems to cost us more...
So many things are subscription based now. It’s probably the en vogue business model and the stock market values such businesses very highly. Not only do they have a resilient, predictable revenue stream, but they have captive customers so they can deliver steady 10% annual growth simply by raising the fee whenever their new sales don’t get them there. Nice for them. I’m sure all companies are looking hard at how to “grow their resilient revenue streams” (I think that’s the preferred nomenclature these days).

Gillette is a subscription business - you buy a shiny handle for cheap and you have to buy replacement cartridges every month, or whenever. It’s not new - they always tried to force customers into blade subscriptions by making blades that only fit their razors, as did all the other razor blade companies.

They tell you it’s cheap and convenient to just pay a subscription and get everything else for free. And it is relatively cheap at first. Then one day you find that everything you do requires a monthly fee or similar, your buying choices are not choices anymore, and you don’t have any money at the end of each month. Instead you’re being charged for being alive. I’m not going to call it slavery because slavery was so much more abhorrent, but you know there’s an element of it here. I think Jack Nicholson was prophetic when he said he doesn’t get out of bed for less than $10 million. This will be true for all of us some day.
 

mcee_sharp

MCEAPWINMOLQOVTIAAWHAMARTHAEHOAIDIAMRHDAE
It all depends, YMMV, and all that stuff.

I (47) am a more traditional guy myself. I believe I don't own anything unless I have it in my hot little hands. I will never subscribe to something I could once own outright. I will hold on to my 2017 Subaru without all that annoying, temperamental, expensive to fix Eyesight stuff for as long as I possibly can. I'm stubborn like that. But also, I have to realize that I have no right to complain because I still have a choice to use said technology or not. I just choose to stop using it. Case in point, I had a multi-hundreds-game streak going on Wordle, but as soon as they required me to create an account to see my stats, I quit cold turkey. Oh well, it's just a game.
Wish I had kept my fun, 2006 Subaru, ~400 crank hp/tq and light weight. It even had spectacular compression/leak down numbers when I sold it in 2019, which made it even sadder to say good bye :(

Funded a fun family trip to Mexico City though, so was worth it in the end.
 
I do many things that are not the most modern, efficient, or affordable way. DE wetshaving is one of these things because I find the process enjoyable and mostly calming if I have a good session.

That does not make me a Luddite. I drive a recent model car, use the Internet continuously, and my home is filled with modern conveniences/luxuries like an ionic air purifier, a hot water heater, and oh yeah air conditioning.

I realize I could get a faster shave from an electric razor, but that is hardly the point, right? We wet-shavers know this. It is about the experience of shaving why we choose to do it this way.
 

blethenstrom

Born to häckla
So many things are subscription based now. It’s probably the en vogue business model and the stock market values such businesses very highly. Not only do they have a resilient, predictable revenue stream, but they have captive customers so they can deliver steady 10% annual growth simply by raising the fee whenever their new sales don’t get them there. Nice for them. I’m sure all companies are looking hard at how to “grow their resilient revenue streams” (I think that’s the preferred nomenclature these days).

Gillette is a subscription business - you buy a shiny handle for cheap and you have to buy replacement cartridges every month, or whenever. It’s not new - they always tried to force customers into blade subscriptions by making blades that only fit their razors, as did all the other razor blade companies.

They tell you it’s cheap and convenient to just pay a subscription and get everything else for free. And it is relatively cheap at first. Then one day you find that everything you do requires a monthly fee or similar, your buying choices are not choices anymore, and you don’t have any money at the end of each month. Instead you’re being charged for being alive. I’m not going to call it slavery because slavery was so much more abhorrent, but you know there’s an element of it here. I think Jack Nicholson was prophetic when he said he doesn’t get out of bed for less than $10 million. This will be true for all of us some day.
This is one of my most frustrating things. I dislike "sticky" selling practices with a passion. Some companies has taken this practice way too far.
 
...I asked them if they would like some help to change the tire. They answered no thank you and that they had called the insurance company and someone was coming to replace it.

That sort of thing really irritates me. Insurance used to be a safeguard against unforeseen, catastrophic occurrences. Now it is used as a service plan. Drives up the premiums for responsible, knowledgeable policy owners, and also fuels inflation on a greater scale since no one would ever directly pay the service providers in cash, the amounts they charge to insurance companies. $10 Aspirins, anyone?
 

blethenstrom

Born to häckla
That sort of thing really irritates me. Insurance used to be a safeguard against unforeseen, catastrophic occurrences. Now it is used as a service plan. Drives up the premiums for responsible, knowledgeable policy owners, and also fuels inflation on a greater scale since no one would ever directly pay the service providers in cash, the amounts they charge to insurance companies. $10 Aspirins, anyone?
Absolutely! How about vet insurance for Fido? That completely exploded the vet costs. I use this phrase a lot. "The more money you make available, the quicker the price will increase"
 

mcee_sharp

MCEAPWINMOLQOVTIAAWHAMARTHAEHOAIDIAMRHDAE
This is one of my most frustrating things. I dislike "sticky" selling practices with a passion. Some companies has taken this practice way too far.
90% of the programs I use for work are sub-based now. I'm only one person, but have about 30k (USD) worth of subs/year.

It was a great model at first for user and vendor, but now only benefits the vendor.
 

mcee_sharp

MCEAPWINMOLQOVTIAAWHAMARTHAEHOAIDIAMRHDAE
Absolutely! How about vet insurance for Fido? That completely exploded the vet costs. I use this phrase a lot. "The more money you make available, the quicker the price will increase"
Would you like the extended service plan with that?

Angry Jon Bernthal GIF by NETFLIX
 
Are we luddites? I don't know. I knew a guy, spent his military career working in sigint (signals intelligence). Very bright guy and very technologically savvy. Among his hobbies after the service, were ham radio, black powder firearms, and making atlatls.

He refused to carry a cellphone but had a telegraph key rigged up in his car.
 

blethenstrom

Born to häckla
Are we luddites? I don't know. I knew a guy, spent his military career working in sigint (signals intelligence). Very bright guy and very technologically savvy. Among his hobbies after the service, were ham radio, black powder firearms, and making atlatls.

He refused to carry a cellphone but had a telegraph key rigged up in his car.
I had a former colleague who was in sigint in UK and he refused to have a cell phone as well.
 

thombrogan

Lounging On The Isle Of Tugsley.
I’m the pinnacle of modernity, @Mr. Shavington

When I write to the airlines to purchase tickets, I use a mechanical pencil and the soy wax candles that illuminate my scrivening surface obtained from genetically edited soybeans, thank you kindly.

Also, I’m jealous of people who don’t use brushes even though I treasure my Dinosaur brush from @apshaveco and Wee Scott from @A.E. Simpson 1919
 

blethenstrom

Born to häckla
I’m the pinnacle of modernity, @Mr. Shavington

When I write to the airlines to purchase tickets, I use a mechanical pencil and the soy wax candles that illuminate my scrivening surface obtained from genetically edited soybeans, thank you kindly.

Also, I’m jealous of people who don’t use brushes even though I treasure my Dinosaur brush from @apshaveco and Wee Scott from @A.E. Simpson 1919
You are a pinnacle of the modern invention user Mr @thombrogan. I write all my correspondence in charcoal and on special occasions crayon.
 

Guido75

Is it swell time?
Dear dear @Mr. Shavington , your post is one giant feast of recognition. I purchased a new stereo a couple of years ago and the guy looked as if I was from Mars when I said I wanted to play my CDs I brought along to check the sound. Obviously my set has a CD player. No longer in my car and there are times that annoys me. I can still remember the moment I plugged my office into a different USB port in my car only to find out that my car had Apple Car - had no idea!

We have Spotify mainly for the offspring, but I will admit that it’s fun for in the car and I have had new music sources. I mainly listen to the radio to a metal station.

Why my washing machine wants connection to the internet I have no idea and I certainly did not download the app. Same goes for my living room thermostat. No reason to have that connected either.

I love books - have way too many of them. I like my Kindle too especially when travelling or for management books (which tend to be appallingly expensive in print - but these end up cheap at the thrift shop later on!).

I still wear a suit and tie to the office even though less and less people are doing so. I like it anyway. Makes me feel good and representative.

Doesn’t make us Luddites as far as I am concerned. Makes us experienced people who still can think for themselves. Who change when change is progress and otherwise ask a question.

Kind of why I like DM Shavers signature from Vin Diesel:

“Being male is a matter of birth. Being a man is a matter of age. But being a gentleman is a matter of choice.”

I like to think we are those gentlemen. And I certainly think you are a perfect gentleman so you just keep being you.

Cheers!

Guido
 
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AimlessWanderer

Remember to forget me!
What does it cost, and what do I get in return? Not just in terms of cash, but also my data, which I value far higher than those trying to extract it from me. This is pretty much what my life choices boil down to.

I'm happy to have a microwave and washing machine amongst my appliances. They make my life easier. I don't have any smart home tech though, as they are far too costly due to the continual "data payments". I don't have any streaming services or digital news subscriptions for the same reason.

Cash payments are relatively easy to determine if I am getting good value. It's less easy when paying with personal privacy. I look first to see if there is a cash alternative before making digital (cash or data) payments.

Example:
A low cost fountain pen gives me a lot of enjoyable writing, for a modest outlay. The cash price of fuelling said pen (ink prices) is ridiculously low per miles written, but as I can't buy in person, there are data costs too. However, as they are so few and far between (due to how long a bottle of ink lasts), I'm happy to pay that cost. I'd prefer to give that little bit of data to an independednt though, rather than the likes of Amazon. Talking about said pen on Facebook has a massively higher data cost than I am prepared to pay, so I won't have a Facebook account.
 

blethenstrom

Born to häckla
What does it cost, and what do I get in return? Not just in terms of cash, but also my data, which I value far higher than those trying to extract it from me. This is pretty much what my life choices boil down to.

I'm happy to have a microwave and washing machine amongst my appliances. They make my life easier. I don't have any smart home tech though, as they are far too costly due to the continual "data payments". I don't have any streaming services or digital news subscriptions for the same reason.

Cash payments are relatively easy to determine if I am getting good value. It's less easy when paying with personal privacy. I look first to see if there is a cash alternative before making digital (cash or data) payments.

Example:
A low cost fountain pen gives me a lot of enjoyable writing, for a modest outlay. The cash price of fuelling said pen (ink prices) is ridiculously low per miles written, but as I can't buy in person, there are data costs too. However, as they are so few and far between (due to how long a bottle of ink lasts), I'm happy to pay that cost. I'd prefer to give that little bit of data to an independednt though, rather than the likes of Amazon. Talking about said pen on Facebook has a massively higher data cost than I am prepared to pay, so I won't have a Facebook account.
You bring up another good point and that is that we spend about 15% more if we pay by card vs cash. The feeling of cash in our hand leaving it is much more tactile and emotional than swiping (ohh I'm old. inserting, tapping) the card. No wonder they want to go cash less and of course the side affect is that they would know all that you buy.
 
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