"Aggressive" - effectiveness, dangerous, or both?

[Teppanyaki]

OK, after lurking here for a month or two and posting for the past few months, one recurring theme that continues to frustrate me is the term "aggressive."

For some people, "aggressive" seems to mean "effectiveness." A more aggressive razor = a good to great shave with fewer passes. I would see this as a positive.

For some people, "aggressive" seems to mean "dangerous." A more aggressive razor = more likelihood of nicks/cuts/razor burn/problems, which can be exacerbated by inexperience/poor technique/the wrong blade/lathering problems/inadequate prep/et cetera. I would see this as a negative.

Example: regarding new (as opposed to vintage) open comb razors, from a scale of mild to aggressive (1-3 = mild, 4-6 = moderate, 7-9 = aggressive, 10 = maximum aggressiveness) I would rank several razors as follows:

Mild - 1904 Merkur open comb/Pre-2009 Muhle R41 (? pre-2010)
Moderate - Ikon OSS open comb
Aggressive - Cadet, Fatip, 2013 Muhle R41
Maximum aggressiveness - 2010-12 Muhle R41

What this list means is not nearly as straightforward to me. Does it mean that milder razors are less likely to be efficient? Safer in the hands of someone who doesn't have great technique?

It seems like everyone uses "aggressive" differently. As someone who is quite new to DE shaving, I personally have to infer whether "aggressive" means effective/efficient, dangerous, or both from the context of people's postings. Realizing that every razor/blade is so much a YMMV (your mileage may vary) issue, for those of us who are in the position of being new to all of this, trying to figure out what "aggressive" means coming from a given poster at any given point is . . . frustrating.

My 2 cents. Anyone else have a similar experience?

 

[ins0ma]

I'm with you. I don't think the word "aggressive" is particularly useful in describing shaving implements, because as guys we're automatically drawn towards "aggressive" things. It's exactly why, after my initial research, I went with Feather blades when I first started with DE razors, and in hindsight I don't think there's a less appropriate blade for a beginner coming from a lifetime of cart use. When I substitute the term "harsh" in place of "aggressive" when it comes to shaving tools, it makes more sense to me.

 

[Z blade]

I have learned that the milder, smoother blade brands are lacking on the sharpness to effectively shave my skin without "aggressive" tendencies. I am sticking to Feather and Wilkinson exclusively, and have a PIF coming with some blades - probably tomorrow.

 

[Mick]

Nuf said......

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/284877-The-absurdity-of-Aggressive-VS-Mild

 

[olschoolsteel]

While reading the OP I was going to see if I could find Turtle's thread, I scroll down and Viola! Read through the thread Turtle linked. Very informative. It helped me with my blade/razor pairing decisions.

 

[edgerunner]

I also don't like the ambiguous 'aggressive' term and try to avoid it whenever possible. I wouldn't say aggressive means dangerous, but I think that while people have in mind 'effective' and 'efficient', it also goes together with 'unforgiving'. The efficiency comes from wider blade gaps, blade exposure, and heft. It means that those effective razors require precise angle, pressure, suitable blade, good technique overall.

 

[redrako]

I think conventionally "Aggressive" means that either more of the blade is exposed and/or there is a larger blade gap between the blade edge and safety bar or comb. Mild razors would be the opposite, ie. smaller blade gap and/or less blade exposure.

Regarding blades I like to think of blades placing somewhere both a sharpness and smoothness spectrum.

Add in that only you have your particular skin and shaving technique and you have a fine kettle of variables for each shaver. So really it's up to each individual to find those sweet combinations that work best for him.

I agree with Mick that an experienced shaver can shave with just about any razor. For me there are some razor/blade combinations that are more effective and others that require more time. Right now Cadet razors, both OC and Safety bar, are perfect for me. They work perfectly with sharp blades such as Gillette 7 o'clock black, blue or yellow or more mild blades such as Astras, Voskhods or Personna IPs.

I think there's some truth In Ins0ma's observation about how some guys rush to "the sharpest blade" they can find. Every time I read about a newbie loading a feather blade, I cringe inside.

Conventional wisdom has been to learn on a razor that is rather forgiving which means that is has a fairly wide angle against the face where it will effectively shave without slicing or abrading your face. Many folks suggest starting off with a forgiving razor such as an EJ89, Gillette Tech, SuperSpeed or Merkur 34 HD as they are effective razors but fairly foregiving.

 

[MixedMotives]

so is the AS-D2 "comfortable and efficient"

 

[SiBurning]

That's an interesting article. Certainly a step in the right direction. But the "Axis of Comfort" still mixes comfort with a feeling of safety. Even then, these things are very much related... They're not independent of each other.

We have the same kind of confusion between slip and protection. Again, these aren't quite independent of each other. Each affects the other.

I think it's just too complicated to be really precise.

In my mind, the aggressiveness of a safety razor can be defined by the following
1. the distance between head and safety bar
2. the distance between the safety bar and blade edge
3. the distance that the blade sticks out past the safety line, which is a line between the head and safety bar
4. the angle the blade makes relative to the safety line

To complicate things, a razor can feel more or less aggressive depending on how much you lean towards the heard or safety bar.

Then there's the differences that blades have in each razor. Some blades are wider than others, so they stick out more or less, making them more or less aggressive. Blades have different bevel angles, which means different angles that the blade makes against the face.

Of course, defining a blade is almost as complicated.

 

[Teppanyaki]

I liked the 2 axis theory (Axis of Comfort and Axis of Efficiency); I'd lump safety in with comfort. Or you could have 3 axes - Comfort, Safety, and Efficiency. Or 4, or 5 . . .

 

[dcobranchi]

In my mind, the aggressiveness of a blade can be defined by the following
1. the distance between head and safety bar
2. the distance between the safety bar and blade edge
3. the distance that the blade sticks out past the safety line, which is a line between the head and safety bar
4. the angle the blade makes relative to the safety line

Is that a typo? I don't think a blade can be classified as "aggressive" or "mild."

 

[SiBurning]

Is that a typo? I don't think a blade can be classified as "aggressive" or "mild."

Thanks for the correction. I meant razor. Fixed now. Also fixed a couple other things.

 

[Ron Scott]

I see no difference during or after the shave with either aggressive or mild. I can feel what people mean but it doesn't influence my shave.

 

[RaiserLiebe]

I think TopGumby had the BEST words on this subject "Stupid, Flyweight, Newbie, Mild Tech"
Cheers!

 

[SpEe1113]

I get the use in context but prefer to say "A razor provides a very close shave," and think it is more so the user who has the aggressive hand with the razor. The razor is merely the tool...the user behind it controls how it is used and must learn how to adjust proper technique between razors for an effective shave.... Too much pressure causing razor burn, cuts, and weepers? Perhaps that is being too aggressive and not necessarily the razors fault...would better technique solve the problem? Probably...

 

[ateace]

I see the most "mild" and the most "aggressive" razors as being the same in that they demand proper focus and technique in order
to achieve a good result.

 

[takeshi]

What this list means is not nearly as straightforward to me. Does it mean that milder razors are less likely to be efficient? Safer in the hands of someone who doesn't have great technique?

It seems like everyone uses "aggressive" differently. As someone who is quite new to DE shaving, I personally have to infer whether "aggressive" means effective/efficient, dangerous, or both from the context of people's postings. Realizing that every razor/blade is so much a YMMV (your mileage may vary) issue, for those of us who are in the position of being new to all of this, trying to figure out what "aggressive" means coming from a given poster at any given point is . . . frustrating.

You need to consider that within the notion of YMMV is the fact that beards vary from person to person. If you don't have a heavy/coarse beard, a mild razor is more likely to be effective and vice-versa. Some may use "aggressiveness" as a synonym for "effectiveness" but the two words have different meanings. Whether one finds a mild or aggressive razor to be effective is a YMMV matter. Aggressiveness is not.

For example, I use the DE89. It's mild and I find it to be very effective/efficient. There are, however, plenty that find the DE89 to be ineffective/inefficient. Again, it's not just a matter of the DE itself but the beard as well.

As always, consider the source and the fact that often the source doesn't include such details as the nature of the person's beard.

It's exactly why, after my initial research, I went with Feather blades when I first started with DE razors, and in hindsight I don't think there's a less appropriate blade for a beginner coming from a lifetime of cart use.

I'm not entirely convinced that Feathers will drastically affect a newbie's shave one way or another but I prefer them so my perspective is probably skewed. People still have to try the various blades to find what works for them and it can be helpful to try both ends of the spectrum to experience the differences. Granted, a lot of newbies mistakenly assume that "sharper" means "better" but this is yet another case where two words have entirely different meanings.

I get the use in context but prefer to say "A razor provides a very close shave," and think it is more so the user who has the aggressive hand with the razor. The razor is merely the tool.

True but tools vary. If they were all identical we wouldn't be having these discussions. There is a tendency to overlook technique but that doesn't mean that different DE's don't have different levels of aggressiveness.

I see the most "mild" and the most "aggressive" razors as being the same in that they demand proper focus and technique in order
to achieve a good result.

IMO that applies to any DE. One can't just fall asleep at the wheel. Well, one can but then one ends up with a nasty cut like the one I got on my lip a while back when I was shaving while half asleep. Even with relatively safe carts I've cut myself due to lack of focus and technique.

I'm with you. I don't think the word "aggressive" is particularly useful in describing shaving implements, because as guys we're automatically drawn towards "aggressive" things.

I can't say that I am and I'm sure there are plenty of others in the same camp. In any case, each person needs to find what works for that person rather than relying on an irrational attachment to a specific word.