Age Estimates of a Wade and Butcher?

[skald]

I just picked up a new Wade and Butcher, and I'm curious if anyone has a guess on it's rough age? I did a bit of research online, but can't find anything to give a clue, so I'm hoping that those with a more educated eye can guess an era.

I know it's pre-1891, obviously, but after that I'm guessing.

The marks on the tang and spine look etched, rather than stamped to me.

I'd be grateful for any help! I mean, it hardly matters really, but I do like to have a general sense of the history if I can figure it out...

 

[Legion]

Best guess, 1850-1870.

It’s probably been rescaled at some point because the pivot pin is not original.

Going out on a limb, if the blade is 1870ish, the original scales broke, and someone slapped on some “new” pressed leather scales around 1900ish.

 

[Frank Shaves]

For those asking about the significance of 1891, the Tariff Act of 1890 (commonly called the McKinley Tariff) required the inclusion of the country of manufacture. For example:

 

[skald]

Best guess, 1850-1870.

It’s probably been rescaled at some point because the pivot pin is not original.

Going out on a limb, if the blade is 1870ish, the original scales broke, and someone slapped on some “new” pressed leather scales around 1900ish.

Interesting - the scales have quite a woody look to me, but if they are pressed leather that would make a lot of sense of some of the stuff I'm seeing. They seem to have a distinct grain, but the top where the pivot pin has been replaced is acting more like leather than wood.

I'll have a better sense when I take them off.

The scales could be a replacement, but they could also be a bad repair job - the bottom pin is brass, and broken. The top pin is a very badly applied nail.

Incidentally, just for my further education, can you give me any insights into what leads you to your age estimate? I am having a hard time finding any useful information about visually dating razors (beyond the super obvious, like "stub tails and full wedges tend to be older" and so on.

What aspects of this seem typical of late-mid-nineteenth century to you?

Cheers!

 

[Legion]

Interesting - the scales have quite a woody look to me, but if they are pressed leather that would make a lot of sense of some of the stuff I'm seeing. They seem to have a distinct grain, but the top where the pivot pin has been replaced is acting more like leather than wood.

I'll have a better sense when I take them off.

The scales could be a replacement, but they could also be a bad repair job - the bottom pin is brass, and broken. The top pin is a very badly applied nail.

Incidentally, just for my further education, can you give me any insights into what leads you to your age estimate? I am having a hard time finding any useful information about visually dating razors (beyond the super obvious, like "stub tails and full wedges tend to be older" and so on.

What aspects of this seem typical of late-mid-nineteenth century to you?

Cheers!

It's generally an impression gained from looking at MANY razors over the years, and seeing how the fashions changed.

In the case of your razor, one tell is, the razor is hollow ground, and there is etching along the spine telling us that. This shows that hollow grinding was still a new enough design feature that they felt the need to advertise it, setting it above the other razors being sold in the shop.

The reason I think the scales are a replacement, rather than a repair, pins don't break, but scales do. If you see a replacement pin, and the scales are undamaged, those scales have replaced the originals. Pins don't just fall out of undamaged scales.

 

[DrStrange]

4 fletchings on arrow
1870 - 1890

Wade (and Butcher)

Blade markings from the century-spanning history of Wade and Butcher, one of Sheffield’s most well-known names. Beginning with a partnership between Robert Wade and William and Samuel Butcher…

acierfondu.wordpress.com

 

[skald]

It's generally an impression gained from looking at MANY razors over the years, and seeing how the fashions changed.

In the case of your razor, one tell is, the razor is hollow ground, and there is etching along the spine telling us that. This shows that hollow grinding was still a new enough design feature that they felt the need to advertise it, setting it above the other razors being sold in the shop.

The reason I think the scales are a replacement, rather than a repair, pins don't break, but scales do. If you see a replacement pin, and the scales are undamaged, those scales have replaced the originals. Pins don't just fall out of undamaged scales.

That makes sense generally, but I've had a couple of razors with broken pins - even on this one, half of the bottom pin seems to be missing (there's no rove on one side).

I'm not saying you're wrong about the scales - that makes some sense- but I have seen broken pins.

Though now that you mention it, that does seem very strange...

Hm...

 

[skald]

4 fletchings on arrow
1870 - 1890

Wade (and Butcher)

Blade markings from the century-spanning history of Wade and Butcher, one of Sheffield’s most well-known names. Beginning with a partnership between Robert Wade and William and Samuel Butcher…

acierfondu.wordpress.com

I don't know if this is true, but I have heard elsewhere that there is no clear correlation between numbers of fletches and date of manufacture. If that's wrong, I'd love to hear it!

I have another Wade and Butcher without the circle-arrow-cross, but I've heard that even the PRESENCE or ABSENCE of those marks is not a reliable tool for dating.

But again, I only have the comments of random people online for this, so I don't know if it's true or not!

 

[DrStrange]

I don't know if this is true, but I have heard elsewhere that there is no clear correlation between numbers of fletches and date of manufacture. If that's wrong, I'd love to hear it!

I have another Wade and Butcher without the circle-arrow-cross, but I've heard that even the PRESENCE or ABSENCE of those marks is not a reliable tool for dating.

But again, I only have the comments of random people online for this, so I don't know if it's true or not!

All I know about tang stamps, is what I read.

However, I think your scales may be horn.
Horn frequently has a grain and texture which resembles wood
and horn can be pressed to form.

 

[skald]

Haha - looks like we're in the same boat - half-informed about tang stamps!

Where is an expert when you need one, eh?

I got the scales off, and it LOOKS like Legion was probably right - I would guess that pressed leather is more likely than horn. I would actually have guessed some kind of pressed cardboard before Legion suggested leather...

I'm reluctant to sand or cut them to find out, but the inside definitely has an old leather look to it, and the flex of the thing feels more like old boiled leather than like horn to me.

 

[skald]

Best guess, 1850-1870.

It’s probably been rescaled at some point because the pivot pin is not original.

Going out on a limb, if the blade is 1870ish, the original scales broke, and someone slapped on some “new” pressed leather scales around 1900ish.

I got the scales off, and I suspect that you are right about the pressed leather. Was that more common around the turn of the 20th century than other times? What makes you think that it happened around 1900?

 

[Legion]

I got the scales off, and I suspect that you are right about the pressed leather. Was that more common around the turn of the 20th century than other times? What makes you think that it happened around 1900?

Just a guess, working on the assumption the scales were bought new. You tend to see them on razors from toward the end of the 19th century. The original scales were most likely horn.

If the scales are transplanted from another razor it could have been done any time in the last 120+ years, and there is no way of knowing when.

 

[skald]

Yeah, that makes sense. Well, for the time being I think I'll put the same ones back on. I may move to horn or hardwood later.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[Lyon Heart]

Sorry I didn't read this thread earlier. Those are absolutely lovely Micarta scales. Early Micarta (Probably a blend of linen or wood fibre & phenol-fermaldehyde). This came into use in the 1880s, which fits the age of your razor so they were probably original. A trick in verifying that they aren't leather is put them against a magnet. For some reason, these early scales stick to magnets. I found if you remove them, soak them for two minutes and press them a few days, they tend to straighten out.

 

[skald]

Sorry I didn't read this thread earlier. Those are absolutely lovely Micarta scales. Early Micarta (Probably a blend of linen or wood fibre & phenol-fermaldehyde). This came into use in the 1880s, which fits the age of your razor so they were probably original. A trick in verifying that they aren't leather is put them against a magnet. For some reason, these early scales stick to magnets. I found if you remove them, soak them for two minutes and press them a few days, they tend to straighten out.

Unfortunately, they're pretty beat up, and one of the holes is pretty badly damaged. Someone seems to have riveted the pivot a bit too aggresively, and the hole is sort of crushed and torn out, which makes it really challenging to get the top pin cliched tight enough. I'm going to try repinning them with really big pin roves to see if I can make it work, but I may have to replace them just for that.

It would be sad - they really are lovely.

 

[WenC]

Hi, I don't want to restart another thread with age wade help.
I bought a wade and butcher from ebay for a price I'm happy with, I'm not going to ask the stupid question of worth it or price, it's subjective to the person. However I do want to know what I received.

From the website posted above and comments. 4 fletchings dates probably 1870-1890.
The etching has wade & butcher on the left, corporate in the center, and Sheffield on the right.

Can someone confirm the estimate date and maybe model/style?

Thanks all.

 

[alex1921]

See post #3 in this thread. Your razor says Sheffield, England.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Your razor is after 1890. It's hard to see much detail in the photos. I cannot make out the material used to make the scales. The blades looks to be in good condition. I would need to see a profile of the grind to know if the razor has a hollow grind or is a near wedge.

I would clean it up, hone it and shave with it, and let us know what you think.

 

[Legion]

Your razor is after 1890. It's hard to see much detail in the photos. I cannot make out the material used to make the scales. The blades looks to be in good condition. I would need to see a profile of the grind to know if the razor has a hollow grind or is a near wedge.

I would clean it up, hone it and shave with it, and let us know what you think.

Scales are bone. Hollow ground, to a 1900’ish level. Probably ~5 years on either side of that.

 

[WenC]

@Frank Shaves I posted more photos. It's wedge grind. I'm not sure what material the scale is either. It is horn? I'm trying to learn. @legihow how do you identify.