I'll see about next week.
After a Coticule?
- Thread starter jgkeegan
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- #22
This does work well! Several months back, I started using a 1.2k > 6k > 13k Sigma/Sigma II progression (synthetic ceramic water-stones), and the edges were too sharp. So I used a black Arkansas to smooth the edge afterwards, and all went very well. In the end, the problem of sharpness was caused by my keeping too much standing water on the 13k stone, which loosened abrasive there. Using the 13k dampened (no standing water) instead resulted in a sharp edge, and yet one that was nearly as smooth as the one off the black Ark, the latter being no longer needed.
I have a very coarse beard, so the coticule edge by itself has never been enough for me--my own or the edge I've received from those in the profession. It is only when it has been followed by a paste (chrox, ferox) that the edge really does what it's supposed to do for me, sever those whiskers.
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Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
+1 what they all said.
You can take a coti edge to the next level by honing under running water after the slurry dilution progression, and then honing on lather on a clean stone. Lots of laps on the lather, replenishing often, and gradually reducing pressure and therefore contact with the stone. This works for most stones, actually, especially synthetics and I am thinking particularly about barber hones. I think you will find very few coticules of decent size and flatness that won't give a very satisfying finish using this technique.
I agree that the main reasons for using a coti in the first place are:
1. The simple fun and challenge of using a coticule, and
2. The very smooth and face-friendly finish.
No way you can take away #1. If you just enjoy coticulizing a blade, it doesn't matter what you follow it with. But if you are mostly all about #2, it seems a shame to finish on anything else, after doing your best with the coti. I have done it, yeah, and when I realized what I was doing, I decided I didn't really need the rock anymore. I was getting my edge from synthetics, and synthetics were the quick and easy way to lead up to the finisher, so I sold the rock to someone who would give it a good home. Now I am a lapping film and diamond on balsa guy. I can get the smoothness of the coti off balsa or denim and I don't really miss the coticule ritual. Everything is consistent and I never have to go back and repeat anything.
If I were really into coticules, and I wanted to go further than what I can get from lather on coti, I would probably take a hard look at a Jnat. Of course that would beg the question of why I needed a Coti to get to the finishing stage in the first place. Only thing is, a Jnat of a size that would satisfy me would cost a pile of money. Well, to be fair, so does a coti, but Jnat even more so.
There are many ways to a good edge. Try one, or try many, but don't dismiss a method until you have truly explored it in depth. I might have never stuck with film if I had not looked at ways to tweak the process, and same for balsa stropping. A lot of guys try these methods but don't go past the basics, and so they get decent but unspectacular results, or they get laser sharp edges that try to filet the face, and they run, tail tucked, back to their nice comforting Belgian yellows, where the edges are comfy but not so sharp because once again, they don't explore and experiment and try different things that others use with great success. It's all good, but you got to put the effort and also use your most important pieces of honing equipment, your eyes and brain.
You can take a coti edge to the next level by honing under running water after the slurry dilution progression, and then honing on lather on a clean stone. Lots of laps on the lather, replenishing often, and gradually reducing pressure and therefore contact with the stone. This works for most stones, actually, especially synthetics and I am thinking particularly about barber hones. I think you will find very few coticules of decent size and flatness that won't give a very satisfying finish using this technique.
I agree that the main reasons for using a coti in the first place are:
1. The simple fun and challenge of using a coticule, and
2. The very smooth and face-friendly finish.
No way you can take away #1. If you just enjoy coticulizing a blade, it doesn't matter what you follow it with. But if you are mostly all about #2, it seems a shame to finish on anything else, after doing your best with the coti. I have done it, yeah, and when I realized what I was doing, I decided I didn't really need the rock anymore. I was getting my edge from synthetics, and synthetics were the quick and easy way to lead up to the finisher, so I sold the rock to someone who would give it a good home. Now I am a lapping film and diamond on balsa guy. I can get the smoothness of the coti off balsa or denim and I don't really miss the coticule ritual. Everything is consistent and I never have to go back and repeat anything.
If I were really into coticules, and I wanted to go further than what I can get from lather on coti, I would probably take a hard look at a Jnat. Of course that would beg the question of why I needed a Coti to get to the finishing stage in the first place. Only thing is, a Jnat of a size that would satisfy me would cost a pile of money. Well, to be fair, so does a coti, but Jnat even more so.
There are many ways to a good edge. Try one, or try many, but don't dismiss a method until you have truly explored it in depth. I might have never stuck with film if I had not looked at ways to tweak the process, and same for balsa stropping. A lot of guys try these methods but don't go past the basics, and so they get decent but unspectacular results, or they get laser sharp edges that try to filet the face, and they run, tail tucked, back to their nice comforting Belgian yellows, where the edges are comfy but not so sharp because once again, they don't explore and experiment and try different things that others use with great success. It's all good, but you got to put the effort and also use your most important pieces of honing equipment, your eyes and brain.
All of this ^^^
WHat methods are there other than the typical dilutions to max it out then? I always produce a smooth buttery edge, hht around 3 or 4 after strop. It seems I never miss on it though. Very consistent even though I have varied the dilutions and slurry. Ive gotten my best edge off of 100 laps on mineral oil. Ive gotten that edge off my oohira kiita and a fast nagura progression in 5 minutes. What the secret guys? I have 3 cotis but I usually use my srd (Ardennes) select stone.
Some people use lather on the stone. I'm not one to suggest oil - unless its an oil stone.
Although I've had few coticules, I remember it being a distinct learning curve.
These aren't like using film or synthetics. Some guys even use pressure to finish on these methods because I guess the tiny particle size allows for it. With a coticule, the garnets are somewhat large. To get a good edge, you're reducing pressure - into the "blade only" realm - and then some. And keep at it for a while. Using lather is a slight buffer against the stone, further reducing the impact of the large particles.
Think of a boulder sticking out of the ground. If your kid sits on the lawnmower when you run over that boulder, you're gonna have a bad time. If you've got your lawnmower set 4" off the ground, your lawnmower might just graze the tip of the boulder. Same idea with the coticule.
And THEN, the edge is still not ready to shave with until you strop it very well.
Although I've had few coticules, I remember it being a distinct learning curve.
These aren't like using film or synthetics. Some guys even use pressure to finish on these methods because I guess the tiny particle size allows for it. With a coticule, the garnets are somewhat large. To get a good edge, you're reducing pressure - into the "blade only" realm - and then some. And keep at it for a while. Using lather is a slight buffer against the stone, further reducing the impact of the large particles.
Think of a boulder sticking out of the ground. If your kid sits on the lawnmower when you run over that boulder, you're gonna have a bad time. If you've got your lawnmower set 4" off the ground, your lawnmower might just graze the tip of the boulder. Same idea with the coticule.
And THEN, the edge is still not ready to shave with until you strop it very well.
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Sometimes with my faster coticules I won't even really dilute... What I've been doing lately is I will raise a milky slurry & hone on that using circles for a little while. I will then rinse the stone & blade, and raise a slightly thinner slurry than before. I will hone on that for a bit, then rinse the stone again. The third time, I raise a misty slurry (2-3 rubs of the slurry stone) & finish on that with 40-50 x strokes...This seems to work better with fast coticules, but I suppose you could give it a shot on really any coticule....
I don't know that this is any better (or worse) than diluting, but it seems to work OK for me...
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Hey no problem. I think it was Jeremy (Brooksie) I was talking to about that. He was telling me that he didn't dilute; instead, he rinsed & refreshed the slurry each time. Well I tried it and have been doing it ever since....it really works well!
Is it as keen as a JNAT? Well I guess that depends on the stone & user....I can get it fairly close....others might have better or differing results though...
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A coticule has rounded garnets that do the cutting, and I think Jnats have particles that have different shapes...makes the edges inherently different. Thus a "lower grit" coticule edge can be equal to some Jnats, IMO. I had one creamy La Dressante that produced an edge that was similar to my one, "softer" Jnat.
- Thread starter
- #32
No question that the user didn't do a good job; no question at all. Also no question that a good coti edge would shave much better than the one I produced yesterday.
The larger issue is expectations. I have been producing very sharp edges with synthetics and film for a long time. I like sharp. My target has been what to do to make my edges smoother. Lately, the Arkie has been doing that.
My question is whether or not I'll be satisfied with a good or even great coti edge; will it be sharp enough?
Well matching one Jnat doesn't really mean they match Jnats. Jnats aren't all ultra-fine finishing stones. Hell, some are bevelers.
I shave with Coti edges that I hone myself all the time and I'm more than satisfied with those edges/shaves.
FWIW - I have what I consider to be very-high expectations when it comes to a razor's edge.
I often do a few laps on the old chinese 12k after coti
I personally don't think all coticules are equal in how fine they can get but that's an ongoing debate.
You have a few options:
You can use oil at the end of honing. This will make the edge finer.
you can also use dish soap or lather to make the hone finer.
you can use the coticule as a prepolisher instead of a finisher and move to a japanese stone of finishing quality or a thuringian stone.
You can finish with pastes which definitely will make the razor glide much easier.
You have a few options:
You can use oil at the end of honing. This will make the edge finer.
you can also use dish soap or lather to make the hone finer.
you can use the coticule as a prepolisher instead of a finisher and move to a japanese stone of finishing quality or a thuringian stone.
You can finish with pastes which definitely will make the razor glide much easier.
- Thread starter
- #37
I fully accept both of those statements. I too have what I consider to be very high expectations when it comes to the sharpness f a razor's edge. The thing I sometimes struggle with is reaching a level of smoothness that I rarely achieve, or if I do then the target changes and I look for more smoothness without significantly reducing sharpness.
I suppose that's why I agreed to try coticule honing -- to reach that legendary coticule smooth edge. Even yesterday after my first coticule hone the edge was smooth. It just wasn't sharp enough to give me a good shave.
Undaunted, I tried again today. I just finished. Unfortunately I can't make my beard grow faster and I shall have to wait a bit to try for the 2nd time.
- Thread starter
- #38
For reasons I have not evaluated, I don't want to do #1 or #2 above.
I have considered seriously #3. In fact, that's what prompted me to begin this thread.
And that's where the concepts get cloudy. If I finish on another stone, whether a japanese stone of finishing quality or a thuringian stone, or a Naniwa 12K superstone, I wonder if I will loose the idea of a coticule edge and end up with something else. I mean, I can also use any of those things to finish any hone. I'm not sure how the results would differ.
I guess I am just trying different things.
I did learn a lot about how coti folks are thinking here and I read much at coticule.be.
I don't see where you have tried the opposite approach of backing down the harsh edge produced from film with the coticule. Just a very faint slurry or maybe just water and a "few" strokes on the coticule will tame a harsh edge. You will have to dial in the technique to suit yourself. Later, Denny
- Thread starter
- #40
You're right DJ. I should try that and see how the edge compares to my backing off with the Arkie.
Thanks.
Thanks.
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