Advice on muscle gain supplements

[p.m.a.]

Hi Guys,
I really enjoy my weight training practice, and my overall goal is simply to become stronger and healthier. However, I feel like my body is slow to build muscle and would like some advice on any of the following types of supplements to that purpose:

NO (Nitric Oxide)
HGH supplements (not the actual HGH, but HGH supplements which stimulate anterior pituitary production)
Natural Testosterone Boosters
Anabolic Flavones (Methoxyisoflavone and Ecdysterone)
ZMA (Zinc Monomethionine Aspartate, plus Magnesium Aspartate and vitamin B-6)
(here's a link for further descriptions: musclegain)

I lift 3x/week, generally eat a lot of protein, low carb (still have a bit of fat to shed), drink a high protein shake immediately after each workout, and take a creatine supplement. I'll eat a few more calories than usual on lifting days, and periodically change up my exercises. I just feel like I should have more muscle gain by now. Thanks!

 

[Benthic]

Whole milk. Preferably raw. If you're trying to add muscle, you've got to give your body plenty of calories to build it with.

Brian

 

[p.m.a.]

Whole milk. Preferably raw. If you're trying to add muscle, you've got to give your body plenty of calories to build it with.

Brian

Thanks, Brian. When is the best time to drink it - only on lifting days? Before or after lifting, or both?

 

[RichGem]

Hi Guys,
I really enjoy my weight training practice, and my overall goal is simply to become stronger and healthier. However, I feel like my body is slow to build muscle and would like some advice on any of the following types of supplements to that purpose:

NO (Nitric Oxide)
HGH supplements (not the actual HGH, but HGH supplements which stimulate anterior pituitary production)
Natural Testosterone Boosters
Anabolic Flavones (Methoxyisoflavone and Ecdysterone)
ZMA (Zinc Monomethionine Aspartate, plus Magnesium Aspartate and vitamin B-6)
(here's a link for further descriptions: musclegain)

I lift 3x/week, generally eat a lot of protein, low carb (still have a bit of fat to shed), drink a high protein shake immediately after each workout, and take a creatine supplement. I'll eat a few more calories than usual on lifting days, and periodically change up my exercises. I just feel like I should have more muscle gain by now. Thanks!

Speaking from 10-12 yrs. of lifting experience and a general interest in nutrition and supplements:

the flavones are a complete waste of time and money. At best you'll get some acne. The dosage you would need for even a mild anabolic effect is massive and expensive.

natural test booster do little to nothing if your test is in normal ranges. If your test is not in normal ranges (as determined by blood test-- you want to look at "free testosterone" not just "total test.", "free test" is what your body can utilize), then you need to discuss options with your doctor.

HGH boosters are either ineffective or can possibly lead to cancer according to some studies.

My own experience with ZMA is that it is ineffective and is probably only useful in cases of actual zinc deficiency.

What I use:

Dessicated liver tabs... old school but effective.

A good multi-vitamin is essential

Argenine (aakg specifically, but plain L-argenine is just fine too)... serves as a NO booster and is much cheaper than commercial mixtures.

Creatine monohydrate

Whey protein during the day

Casein protein for overnight

stinging nettle ROOT extract (often sold as divanyl or divanex)... frees test from SHBG thus making your natural test more available for use.

Keep in mind that muscle gain is slow, even putting on a pound of muscle every month or so is extraordinary. For max results however, your protein intake should be your weigh times either 1 or 1.5. This number is the number of grams of protein you should try to consume daily. Be sure to drink plenty of water, high protein diets can be rough on the kidneys for some people.

So, to take myself for ex... 165 lbs... I should consume 165g to 247g of protein daily.

Above all... check with your doctor about all of this; some supplements may not mix well with some medications. I am not a doctor; I am only stating my opinion and telling you what works for me.

Final thought to keep in mind: the supplement industry is sales driven just like any other commercial venture. It is also unregulated by the FDA. Do not believe the hype; much of the industry wants just to sell you their latest and their latest is often very expensive and full of either questionable or under-dosed ingredients. Sensible, low key, nutrition and some supplementation is the way to go, IMHO. Look to what the "old school" natural bodybuilders used (protein, creatine, liver, vitamins, amino acids (in add to the protein)) and you're on the right track, again, IMHO. Scientifically speaking, there is no magic pill and there probably never will be.

edit: one thing on eating... have a small whey shake as soon as you get up in the morning. I mean right away, before breakfast or anything else. Also have a shake (preferably casein as it will last longer) before going to bed to feed your body through the night.

 

[ackvil]

I would agree 100% with RichGem. Most of the supplments, etc. are junk and do little but separate you from your $$

 

[p.m.a.]

Thanks, RichGem. I really appreciate your experience here - this is exactly what I was looking for! With so many products, and so much hype, it's hard to find some honest-to-goodness information.

 

[RichGem]

Thanks, RichGem. I really appreciate your experience here - this is exactly what I was looking for! With so many products, and so much hype, it's hard to find some honest-to-goodness information.

Glad to help!

 

[RichGem]

In case it's not clear... the formula/guideline I gave above for protein consumption gives you the total amount of protein per day. In other words, the amount of protein from natural sources (ie: meat, etc.) and shakes combined, NOT just the amount to ingest in shake form.

 

[Benthic]

Thanks, Brian. When is the best time to drink it - only on lifting days? Before or after lifting, or both?

I never concerned myself much with timing. I just drank it with meals, or as part of a protein shake. Milk has a reasonable amount of protein, and plenty of calories. After all, it's the only substance on the planet that was truly intended as food, and it's intended to make small mammals into bigger ones.

I don't know how much you weigh now vs. how much you'd like to weigh. But if you've got a long way to go, milk and heavy lifting will definitely help you get there. Just keep in mind that in order to put on muscle you're going to put on fat at the same time. That's not really a big deal though as it's far easier to lose fat than it is to gain muscle.

I also very much agree with Rich on the ideas of keeping your protein intake up, and staying hydrated.

Brian

 

[RichGem]

I never concerned myself much with timing. I just drank it with meals, or as part of a protein shake. Milk has a reasonable amount of protein, and plenty of calories. After all, it's the only substance on the planet that was truly intended as food, and it's intended to make small mammals into bigger ones.

I don't know how much you weigh now vs. how much you'd like to weigh. But if you've got a long way to go, milk and heavy lifting will definitely help you get there. Just keep in mind that in order to put on muscle you're going to put on fat at the same time. That's not really a big deal though as it's far easier to lose fat than it is to gain muscle.

I also very much agree with Rich on the ideas of keeping your protein intake up, and staying hydrated.

Brian

This reminded me that I also take omega-3 fatty acids (good fat). I take 6-8g a day. Daily RDA on fat is 32g, so at least some of my intake is guaranteed to be good (make sure you get "molecularly distilled" fish oil if you go that route). In planing your food, don't make the common low-carb dieter's mistake of thinking that any old fat is OK b/c you're low-carbing. Try to replace as much bad fat with good fat as possible and realize that fats are much more calorically dense than proteins (weight for weight, fats have more calories than proteins). Do not attempt to totally cut out all fat from your diet or to overly limit it; your body needs it to function properly.

Also it's good to take a post-workout shake within an hour (preferably within half an hour) of finishing your workout and/or to sip a little protein w/ carbs during your work out. My during workout drink is a scoop of zero carb protein + 0.5L water + 0.5L gatorade. Post-workout I head for either a shake or eat my next meal depending on when I work out.

As mentioned above, or at least implied, it will be difficult to both gain muscle and lose fat concurrently. You need calories and protein to gain muscle, you need to cut calories to lose weight. Low-carbing may help and you already do that. The good fat/omega-3s(and friends) will be particularly important here as a source of energy. However, on lifting days (2x/week for me), I take all the carbs (within reason) that I want; I need the extra energy for the gym.

Cardio is important too; don't neglect it, but don't get crazy either.

5-6 smaller meals/feedings a day are much better for you, particularly if you want to lose weight than 3 larger meals. Many dieters do themselves in by cutting back too much and sending the body into starvation mode which cause the body to hang onto as many calories as possible to cope with the "starvation" situation. Better to keep your body fueled and burning fuel all day long by more constant eating. If your body is convinced that more food is coming soon, it's more likely not to be in starvation mode and more apt to give up calories rather than to store them.

 

[p.m.a.]

Thanks for the follow-ups, guys. Forgot to mention that I do take a good mutli-vitamin (Super Nutrition Men's once a day, though I just ordered Super Nutrition opti-packs), and I take 2g/3xday Nordic Naturals Ultimate Omega (molecularly distilled).

Since two weeks I'm taking more little meals/snack through the day (pistachios, Odwalla 14g protein bars, and Clif Builder 20g protein bars are my frequent snacks) and slug a glass or two of water after each meal, snack, and whenever I think about it. I don't shun carbs, but I'll stick with whole grains if I do partake. I'm more of a South Beach eater than Atkins.

Cardio is definitely missing from my current routine. We've been looking for a good deal on an elliptical machine at home, but since the weather is nice I should really be taking 20-minute walk/runs on non-lifting days. Thanks again for all the helpful advice!

 

[APenguin]

Sprinting post workout has been shown to dramatically increase HGH levels. Obviously you should sprint and then drink your protein. The great thing about sprinting is that it doesn't take very long.

 

[DolimiteB]

Having just finished up a college hockey career I spent a lot of time over the previous 6-8 years in the weight room. Hockey doesn't really require you to be a bodybuilder, but it takes substantial muscle and aerobic capacity at the collegiate level. My recommendations:
1) Most protein supplements are junk. Powder protein isn't of the same quality as what you would find in natural protein sources (chicken breast, sushi, cottage cheese, etc.). Keep in mind, your body can only process about 45 grams of protein at a given time. I see guys at the gym slamming down their 80 g protein shake and laugh. They can't figure out why they're getting fatter. 40 will go to the muscles; the other 40 g turns into fat you've got to burn later.
2) If you still have fat you want to burn you don't need more calories, you need the right calories. Protein in the amounts prescribed by one of the other guys (1-1.5 grams per pound of body weight) is appropriate. This will allow you to continue building muscle (albeit slowly) while trimming fat (assuming you're not eating processed food for your other calories)
3) The liver, omega fatty acids, multi-vitamins are a wiser investment than a big tub of powder. Catie's Organic Greens and Catie's Vitamin C Plus are two of the best vitamins out there. Laird Hamilton swears by them (www.energyessentials.com) .
4) If you still want to consume protein in powder form, look into something along the lines of Muscle Milk (I like their oatmeal offering). At first glance it turns people off because they see the fat content, but the fats in Muscle Milk are unsaturated and essential to your body's recovery.
5) The best way to burn fat through limited cardio is by running incline intervals on the treadmill. Not sure how fast you run, but it wasn't uncommon for us to crank the incline to 5 % and run for one minute at 10 mph. Repeat 5 more times. Increase incline to 10% and run for 45 seconds at 10 mph. Repeat 3 more times. Increase incline to 15% and run for 30 seconds at 10 mph. Repeat 2 more times. 2 minutes rest between each interval. Do this three times a week and your metabolism turns into an incerator.

 

[Sal]

For me, after ~10 years of lifting I have found supplements a pretty big waste of money. This is from the documentary, "Bigger Stronger Faster" about bodybuilding and steroids, it is pretty good if you get a chance to watch it. He does a segment on supplements and it is pretty self explanatory.

[YOUTUBE]ThdFqGLq4QU[/YOUTUBE]

A few random thoughts with really knowing nothing about you. Not trying to sound like a know it all, just throwing ideas out.

Maybe look at your goals and your routine. You say you want to get stronger and leaner, is your workout geared towards that. There is a big difference between how power lifters, body builders, cardio, ect work out. Make sure you are doing something geared towards your goals.

You said that you are trying to gain muscle mass while losing weight. That actually is a hard thing to do.

Are you getting enough sleep/rest? Muscle is built in your down time not while lifting.

Are you over/under training?

If you are new to lifting are you maybe underestimating the amount of time it takes to achieve a decent amount of strength?

 

[nav]

Good advice on this thread. You could also add Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAA) which are involved with muscle strength, endurance, and muscle stamina. They are:
Valine, Leucine and Isoleucine.

You can purchase BCAA from good health food stores and some gyms may also stock them.

 

[p.m.a.]

Maybe look at your goals and your routine. You say you want to get stronger and leaner, is your workout geared towards that. There is a big difference between how power lifters, body builders, cardio, ect work out. Make sure you are doing something geared towards your goals.

You said that you are trying to gain muscle mass while losing weight. That actually is a hard thing to do.

Are you getting enough sleep/rest? Muscle is built in your down time not while lifting.

Are you over/under training?

If you are new to lifting are you maybe underestimating the amount of time it takes to achieve a decent amount of strength?

Good points, Sal. Thanks! Great video too.

I'm recently understanding that rest time is where the actual muscle gain occurs, so I've been making that time count (sometimes difficult between kids, work, school, and community work). It's the fat that I'm trying to shed, not necessarily the weight. I had been lifting/cardio for a couple of years now, as well as changing my eating, and so far have dropped about 30 lbs. of fat. I've still got that last 10 lbs. or so of fat that I would like to shed.

I've learned hard lessons about over-training (injuries), and I'm getting better at listening to my body. In the past several months I'm getting more serious about weight lifting to gain muscle and strength, though unfortunately I've also let the cardio drop to the wayside. I think adding the cardio back in will make a huge difference towards my goals - I just need to make that time.

 

[Stubblefield]

Whole milk. Preferably raw. If you're trying to add muscle, you've got to give your body plenty of calories to build it with.

Brian

Agree. It worked for the old timers. Heavy cream is also excellent if you find you are not getting enough fat. I mostly use it when I Keto.

I'd also add a vitamin D suppliment, fish oil (not cod liver oil) and plenty of sleep. Avoid stress, if you are overly stressed then you are producing cortisol.

Do you happen to know your macronutrient ratios? sounds like you are eating a lot of protein, little carb, and . . . what else?

And while I'm thinking about it, what are you doing as far as training goes? What types of lifts?

 

[MikeyAces]

You've got a pretty good routine going as is, I would recommend trying an NO booster. As far as supplements go, NO booster's are one of the few that have a bit of supporting science behind them. When I was using one (NOXplode) I had an easier time getting through my strength training, and whether or not it was a placebo, I was able to throw an extra 10 to 15 pounds onto most things.

 

[Zenas]

Supplements are a waste of money. I really don't think they do anything at all for you. Creatine may allow you to do one more rep before muscle failure, but that's it. It doesn't get you "big", and neither will other supplements. The only way to gain muscle is by good ole' fashioned working out.

I am a big fan of http://scoobysworkshop.com/. It's a free site run by a near 50 year old man in phenomenal shape. He gives his advice and opinions based on his 30 some-odd years of bodybuilding. I like his tips and have been following some of his advice, particularly on weight loss. Check out some of his stuff on muscle gain.

 

[Stubblefield]

I am a big fan of http://scoobysworkshop.com/. It's a free site run by a near 50 year old man in phenomenal shape. He gives his advice and opinions based on his 30 some-odd years of bodybuilding. I like his tips and have been following some of his advice, particularly on weight loss. Check out some of his stuff on muscle gain.

One of the few bodybuilders that seems to actually know what he is talking about. Dave Draper's site is another gem.

My current favorite: 70's Big. http://www.70sbig.com/