A second look at the Iwasaki honing guide

[alx gilmore]

I have been fooling around for a while with an idea regarding the Iwasaki honing guide booklet that Jim Rion translated a couple of years ago, and of which you can find here Jim's really unique sharpening blog Eastern Smooth.

I do not speak or read Japanese, Jim does. And I am not a honemeister, like some of the esteemed fellows here are. So with that in mind please feel free to critique my method and results seen here in the below videos and photos. I will provide the videos first and then the photos that were taken while making the video (part 1 & part 2).

From my observations I have come to believe, like Iwasaki-san has mentioned that one result of honing hard tool steel on fine abrasives is that there is a portion of the blade, at the very edge, that is weak and will fail under labor. Stropping as a technique will wear off some of that "false edge" and in doing so will provide access to the actual edge that is found closer into the body of the blade. This true or actual edge should under ideal conditions, be comprised of a greater portion of the virgin steel that is unadulterated and closer what the blacksmith had created. When you abrade a steel blade you, by that very act, change the nature of the surface steel by removing surface particles. Good or bad it is an action-creation sequence. In my video you will see me take a Pro-Active step in the formation of my blades edge, by joining the edge in an attempt to access this true edge directly, and once done my attempt to try and reform the cutting edge (in Pt.2) while working as close to that region of virgin steel as possible.

 

[alx gilmore]

Here is Part 2 video of joining the blades edge.

And the photos:

Alx

 

[Kentos]

I have also studied that paper and also come to the conclusion that a few laps after the tomonagura on abrasives do help out a lot. I have actually eliminated the up and down short strokes on water since after 10 laps on abrasives the edge is wicked sharp and lasts a very long time.

 

[Brooksie967]

Wonderful wonderful videos Alex! This really demonstrates the true power of the Jnat! Gunna try that 'joining' tonight!

 

[duderdo]

Alex, thank you so much for this. I've skimmed over the paper as well but stumbled on the point you describe-- "What? Drag the edge along the stone?? No way!" but the way you demonstrate the process backing it up with pictures makes perfect sense. I'm going to try this tonight.

 

[Steve56]

Great food for thought Alex! I'm going to have to get up a little nerve to do that.

Cheers, Steve

 

[Gamma]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I seem to remember that Iwasaki's method was to break/clear the burr off with a green compound on a cloth substrate which we think was Crox on a felt/wool like paddle.
Then - when he had removed the burr, or false edge, he went back to the stone to remove the rounding of the bevel. Very short 2-3mm lateral strokes on the stone were used and that process took 15-20 minutes or so. This re-flattened the faces of the bevel and removed the 'heavy' feeling of the rounded bevel.
Effectively - this was sorta similar to the same thing you're doing Alex, but in what I think is a decidedly different way.
Not that the difference matters - just sayin..

The other thing though - I was always under the impression that the burr/false edge thing was especially pronounced due to Iwasaki's honing regimen.
He did, after all, recommend 16 lb of force to set a bevel. Which - I think - is a bit exteme since he described it as enough force to shake a house.

At any rate - burr reduction and removal is actually critical to a well done edge - IMO, how you get there is irrelevant.
Criss-crossing x-strokes do very well for me in this area, so do a few other techniques in my tool-kit.

I don't know that I'll be using a burr-removal technique like you did - but it sure does give a good visual for instruction.
I've been meaning to try the felt-block burr removal method like knife sharpeners do - seem like a less invasive method.

 

[Tierdaen]

Anyone do microburr removal with something mild like plastic, cork, or wood?

 

[Doc226]

Love it, great videos.

 

[Kentos]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I seem to remember that Iwasaki's method was to break/clear the burr off with a green compound on a cloth substrate which we think was Crox on a felt/wool like paddle.
Then - when he had removed the burr, or false edge, he went back to the stone to remove the rounding of the bevel. Very short 2-3mm lateral strokes on the stone were used and that process took 15-20 minutes or so. This re-flattened the faces of the bevel and removed the 'heavy' feeling of the rounded bevel.
Effectively - this was sorta similar to the same thing you're doing Alex, but in what I think is a decidedly different way.
Not that the difference matters - just sayin..

The other thing though - I was always under the impression that the burr/false edge thing was especially pronounced due to Iwasaki's honing regimen.
He did, after all, recommend 16 lb of force to set a bevel. Which - I think - is a bit exteme since he described it as enough force to shake a house.

At any rate - burr reduction and removal is actually critical to a well done edge - IMO, how you get there is irrelevant.
Criss-crossing x-strokes do very well for me in this area, so do a few other techniques in my tool-kit.

I don't know that I'll be using a burr-removal technique like you did - but it sure does give a good visual for instruction.
I've been meaning to try the felt-block burr removal method like knife sharpeners do - seem like a less invasive method.

It was my theory that the pressure during bevel set would only apply to kamisori. I can't imagine that much force on a full hollow.

 

[Gamma]

I'm pretty sure you're correct. 16 lb of pressure on a full hollow would be seriously problematic.

 

[jpcwon]

So, wait..is it bad that all this time I have not been "joining" my edges when I hone? I feel very ignorant in some respects, as I also do not really pay attention to scratch patterns and/or the existence of "false" edges when honing. I basically set the bevel on my 1k Chosera, and I do one test and one test only after that (TPT, which I have dialed in perfectly)....I will then do my normal progression on JNAT (whether that be Mikawa Nagura or Axe Method, whatever), strop and do one HHT and that's it. I often times won't even use a loupe/microscope when I hone and go just by feel...is that bad?

I feel like I'd know if I was getting false edges based on the blade's inability to hold a good edge or shave well...But are false edges more common than I thought & should I be paying closer attention to this stuff when I hone? The thing is, I have been getting great smooth edges consistently and have not felt a need to "change my ways"...I dunno, just thinking out loud...

 

[Gamma]

Experimentation is the key to learning, understanding, and raising the bar of proficiency.

The concept of a piece of steel with two angular faces meeting at a perfect line (read: edge) is interesting.
One that is hardly practical or possible in most cases though I think - at the highest magnification I think the line can be 'more perfect' more often than not - and this is the goal.
Whether or not jumping through hoops to get 'there' and whether or not all of that translates to a 'better' or 'smoother' or 'sharper' edge is debatable.
I suppose someone will make claim to a 'proof' but I'd also guess the 'testing' will be less than adequate.

Some edges on some knives will cut some substances well and not others - and we can still say those edges are sharp.
I think most of us, either consciously or unwittingly, flirt with the refinement of the edge to a degreee where it's both functional and smooth.
The reduction and/or elimination of the 'false edge' is a methodical extension of that concept.
I think that romanticizing it to where the goal is to use the steel as imagined may speak more to swords than razors but who knows?
Maybe the razor smiths did envision their chosen 'recipes' for steel composition and HT&T to be capable of things that were short-circuited by inadequate post-sale handling.

Anything is possible I suppose.

 

[duderdo]

I gave this a shot tonight on my crazy hard Ozuku.

To be honest I didn't go from bevel set-- this was a razor that already had a great edge to begin with. So I made a slurry with my DMT on the Ozuku (which took much longer than on Alex's stone) and did the same-- starting with twenty strokes using the axe method. I then "joined" the edge as in the video and tested it. Dull as a butter knife.

Started a new slurry and keeping in mind that Alex ended up adding strokes, I started from 40 (30,20,10,5,3,2,1) and tested the edge. I was shocked how such a small amount of work brought the edge back. I stropped and did a quick HHT-- 3-5, very much like in Alex's video. I then did my favorite test, where I wet my cheek and do a quick pass (this is where edges do or die in my books, good prep helps a sub-par edge but a true edge will still be semi-comfortable with water only)-- it was smooth! Not as close as I would like however. It's difficult to say because I shaved this morning, but I'm hoping I can refine the edge just a bit to get a bit more keenness. Tomorrow I'll do a proper bevel-set to finish, hopefully that will clear up a bit of the variance with the HHT results.

 

[Fuzzy Chops]

In my video you will see me take a Pro-Active step in the formation of my blades edge, by joining the edge in an attempt to access this true edge directly, and once done my attempt to try and reform the cutting edge (in Pt.2) while working as close to that region of virgin steel as possible.

Alex,
I wonder if your joining will remove the edge or just roll it - have you tried stropping after the joining to see if the edge returns to HHT?

 

[Seraphim]

What I love about Iwazaki's honing manual is that he is about as an opinionated blowhard as any of the honing gurus here on B&B (myself included)

Take a look at this gem:

After this, it’s often possible to use the razor without even stropping. There should be absolutely noirritation or pain from it. However, somehow the edge might feel slightly “heavy”. For
inexperienced women hairdressers or older people in their fifties with withered arms, I recommend
being satisfied with this.

HA!

That's mint!

 

[Obiwan]

Great videos Alex. After seeing this the first time I tried it with great success. I held my breath the whole time I dragged edge down, but the resulting shave using your axe method was fantastic.

 

[Mer]

Anyone do microburr removal with something mild like plastic, cork, or wood?

Like with DE blades, right?

 

[alx gilmore]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I seem to remember that Iwasaki's method was to break/clear the burr off with a green compound on a cloth substrate which we think was Crox on a felt/wool like paddle.
Then - when he had removed the burr, or false edge, he went back to the stone to remove the rounding of the bevel. Very short 2-3mm lateral strokes on the stone were used and that process took 15-20 minutes or so. This re-flattened the faces of the bevel and removed the 'heavy' feeling of the rounded bevel.
Effectively - this was sorta similar to the same thing you're doing Alex, but in what I think is a decidedly different way.
Not that the difference matters - just sayin..

The other thing though - I was always under the impression that the burr/false edge thing was especially pronounced due to Iwasaki's honing regimen.
He did, after all, recommend 16 lb of force to set a bevel. Which - I think - is a bit exteme since he described it as enough force to shake a house.

At any rate - burr reduction and removal is actually critical to a well done edge - IMO, how you get there is irrelevant.
Criss-crossing x-strokes do very well for me in this area, so do a few other techniques in my tool-kit.

I don't know that I'll be using a burr-removal technique like you did - but it sure does give a good visual for instruction.
I've been meaning to try the felt-block burr removal method like knife sharpeners do - seem like a less invasive method.

Gamma
I totally appreciate each and every one of your posts. But you confuse me sometimes. I am not going to beg you to try my little experiment (a 5 minute job) but you have me sort of going in 2 directions here. One minute you say as above "

I don't know that I'll be using a burr-removal technique like you did - but it sure does give a good visual for instruction.
I've been meaning to try the felt-block burr removal method like knife sharpeners do - seem like a less invasive method.

And then the next day

Experimentation is the key to learning, understanding, and raising the bar of proficiency.

The concept of a piece of steel with two angular faces meeting at a perfect line (read: edge) is interesting.
One that is hardly practical or possible in most cases though I think - at the highest magnification I think the line can be 'more perfect' more often than not - and this is the goal.
Whether or not jumping through hoops to get 'there' and whether or not all of that translates to a 'better' or 'smoother' or 'sharper' edge is debatable.
I suppose someone will make claim to a 'proof' but I'd also guess the 'testing' will be less than adequate.

The truth is I would be happy if you would try out this "joining" method and see if you can perfect it, not just try it but actually perfect it and help me prove it one way or the other. My whole idea here is to try something new, not to just fiddle with a known technique. By using the awasedo itself and the grit of the stone with standing the razor on edge my attmept is to abrade the false edge off, it may bend over or break off but it should abrade under direct contact with the stone.

Also since I have a copy of Jim Rion's translation right in front of me I thought I should set the record straight on a couple of other points. You remembered

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I seem to remember that Iwasaki's method was to break/clear the burr off with a green compound on a cloth substrate which we think was Crox on a felt/wool like paddle.
Then - when he had removed the burr, or false edge, he went back to the stone to remove the rounding of the bevel. Very short 2-3mm lateral strokes on the stone were used and that process took 15-20 minutes or so. This re-flattened the faces of the bevel and removed the 'heavy' feeling of the rounded bevel.
Effectively - this was sorta similar to the same thing you're doing Alex, but in what I think is a decidedly different way.
Not that the difference matters - just sayin..

In Jim's prodigious toil of the translation he quotes Iwasaki-san as using in the Coarse honing-botan stage, 16.5kg of pressure, this equals 36pounds of pressure, not 16pounds.

In one of Jim's blogs he wrote about visiting the Iwasaki workshop, and how Mizuochi-san used a lot of downward pressure to remove a chip very quickly. I have a scale here, and with all fingers on both hands I can hardly exert 36 pounds of pressure and there is no way I could keep up even with even the lessor 16 pounds of pressure for any lenght of time.

Also I don't think it is practical to, as Iwasaki-san suggests, to move back and forth for 10 to 15 minutes with the weight of the razor only in short 1 - 2mm strokes parallel to the edge. This sounds to me a feat that only a guru could master.


JP. Obviously you have found a sweet spot with your honing technique so stick with it, you abilities and confidence to fluidly hone and then shave directly is, when it all shakes out is where we all want to be. My techniques are for my own enjoyment and invention and I should feel lucky to have this forum to think out loud in. In short, I myself have not mastered this joining technique, and I am not challanging Jim Rion's translation.

Best Wishes, Alx

 

[Seraphim]

I don't see any "false edge" or burr in any of your scope pics.