A concern on contibutable giving......

[BCatl]

What concerned me the most (if I'm understanding it correctly) was the wife's statement that you should not worry about the money after you put it in the plate.
The church should be a good steward of the money after you put it in the plate and they should be more than happy to work with you to solve this mystery. The idea that you "shouldn't worry" would be unacceptable to me.

 

[GrooveDachshund]

What concerned me the most (if I'm understanding it correctly) was the wife's statement that you should not worry about the money after you put it in the plate.
The church should be a good steward of the money after you put it in the plate and they should be more than happy to work with you to solve this mystery. The idea that you "shouldn't worry" would be unacceptable to me.

It sounded to me that, while she was concerned about the disappearance, she was more concerned with trying to assure him that it's his intent that matter in the end. I can see interpreting it in a different way, though, but it's hard to imagine a pastor's wife being that cold.

 

[Tony Miller]

Since the checks are never cashed at least the money is not being stolen and used elsewhere. I would also venture to guess that you are not the only one with this problem at your church, the Pastors wife is just not sharing everything.

Is it possible the book keeper, the Pastors wife, is becoming forgetful or having a real problem keeping track of things and by saying it is not happening elsewhere trying to deny her issues?

Another thought. Not being part of a larger body, just an independant church, is a huge task and puts a burden on the Pastor, his wife and especially their marriage. If this is his full time job his salary is coming from the collection plate each week. Could his wife be hoping to keep the income numbers down in an effort to steer her husband away from this job to ease the burden to them without him knowing? Possibly doing the wrong things for the right reasons?

Tony

 

[maxman]

Wow, I can't even imagine how this would feel.
I'm sorry to hear it.
At our church, we give our tithing directly to our bishop or one of his councillors. No one else can take the money.
Can that be a possibility for you? Give it directly to those in charge?
I hope that this turns out well for you in the end.

 

[Dustinl]

Wow, I can't even imagine how this would feel.
I'm sorry to hear it.
At our church, we give our tithing directly to our bishop or one of his councillors. No one else can take the money.
Can that be a possibility for you? Give it directly to those in charge?
I hope that this turns out well for you in the end.

Marc,

I could hand it to the pastor and he would in turn hand it to his wife.

The bottom line is that we consider our church home. I don't want to just walk away. I have seen people come and go because they get their feelings hurt. Or because they don't like the contemporary worship and they think we should sing hymns. Or because we don't have a steeple. I am not one to switch churches everytime someone does something that I don't like or agree with. But at the same time, I am at the end of my patience. Our checks are disappearing. Our account numbers are on our checks. I am giving this last check one more day to clear, then I am going to request a meeting with the pastor and try to resolve this. Again.


DL

 

[Spivey]

I think this brings up an issue worth noting: the examples we have in the New Testement of church leadership all point to independent congregations headed by a plurality of elders (aka bishops, pastors, shepards, etc) assisted by a plurality of deacons and the members (Acts, I Tim, II Tim & Titus).

Mr. Miller's point is dead on, it's a LOT of work for one man and was not intended to be handled by one man.

 

[raisindot]

I truly doubt that you are the only one this is happening to. My guess is that either someone in congregation is stealing certain checks from the plate or knows where the pastor's wife is keeping them and taking them from thee, or that there is some kind of account-number harvesting game going on. Or, perhaps someone is keeping these checks and holding them for awhile before cashing them in the hope that you'll forget about them after awhile.

I would definitely put a stop order on all of these checks, just in case someone does try to cash them for their own use (it's not like this has never happened in a religious or charitable organization).

The problem with churches is that they're not subject to the same level of IRS scrutiny as 501(c)3 charitable organizations, and many don't have strong governance practices in place. So it's not easy to get data on these issues.

I wouldn't set up a direct deposit system with them, either. I'd simply tell them that, as a member of the church, you have a right to know how your charitbale donations are being used, and you want them to fully account for the money you've given. In this case, it means they need to conduct an internal investigation to find out who is handling these checks from the moment they'lre picked up from the plate to the moment they're deposited. If they've lost your checks, they're putting your financial security at risk. They need to proactive an energetically come up with the answers, even if this means bringing in outside investigators.

If the clergy are unwilling to do this, then I would consider leaving the church, but I'd also recommend letting as many fellow congregants be aware of this situation, so they can either disclose that they've been the victim of similar practices or at least they can be aware that this situation is going on.

Good luck!

 

[ouch]

I can't imagine anything punitive going on here. I know that on the rare occasion that I want to punish someone (okay, maybe three times a week), not taking their money is always last on the list of things to do.

Very perplexing story. Why not discuss your concerns with your pastor?

 

[maxman]

Can you ask for a settlement sheet with all your contributions on it?
It will at least show what the church has received in comparison to what you know you submitted.
I'm not sure what the next step would be, but it will force their record keeping to be in the spotlight.
Surely they are using a computer to track it all.

 

[BCatl]

What about playing with his mind? He actually handed the wife an envelope with 2 checks in it. He put it in her hands and only one of the checks gets desposited. Keep in mind, at the time he handed her the envelope, she already knew that the OP was concerned about his checks.

One thought I had in my first post was to keep this peaceful. When you start potentially playing games with someone like this, it's almost like asking them to lose their cool. My thought at the time was that it was better to find a more organized and well run church than to run the risk of losing your cool.

However, it's pretty obvious the OP wants to stay and that's great and I hope he gets it worked out with these people. I just find the whole thing quite strange and I would guess that almost no one on this site has experienced something like this.

 

[ChrisTWB]

I appreciate that. It's hard for me to believe that this is happening. A member and leader for nine years. I know these people.
DL

You mean you THINK you know these people. As they say, you can be sleeping with the enemy and not even know it. You think you know someone but you really dont.

And the fact that she can't explain it, and that it happened again after I addressed it.

Something is not right here. If someone is stealing or they do want you to leave or what. I am not sure what is going on but something is. I personally would walk away knowing that things are not on the up and up and that something is about to go down. Whether it is they just dont want me their or some kind of theft. The pastors wife does not seem to be to shocked by it. I am not pointing fingers but...

 

[LarryAndro]

GrooveDachsund nailed it!

The pastor's wife should not be doing anything with money in my opinion. I have spent my life till recently in small churches. Even though this might be common, it is very unwise practice.

And, yes, you can direct deposit into any bank account. Including a church bank account. That is how I have donated to my church the last 15 years. Easy! Dependable. Traceable.

All money received should be counted by two individuals. And, all money transactions should be audited yearly. At no time should money be left in the possession of just one person before the money is counted and recorded.

 

[BCatl]

Good advice, but I could understand why a small church may not be able to afford an audit.

However, it sounds to me like something has become clear even without an audit: that even if you put checks in the wife's hands, there is no guarantee they will both be desposited in the church account. Pretty strange if you ask me. I don't know how an audit could correct something as basic as that.

 

[Prince]

Can you set the church up on bill pay? That's what we do and there has never been a problem with our church losing our $.

Our church is 2K member's strong.

 

[LarryAndro]

Good advice, but I could understand why a small church may not be able to afford an audit...

True. But, an audit is a function that can be performed by anyone. It doesn't have to be an audit by an accountant. Just ask someone who is not associated with the church in any way to review the numbers.

An "audit" can be performed by the church members themselves. In fact, every dollar donated, (wiped of any connection to donater names), should be present in a financial statement. And, that financial statement should be open property of every church member.

Every dollar donated is counted by two.
The amount received immediately recorded in a public record of some type.
The amount of money recorded in the public record/book reconciled with monthly financial statement (producible by many free software titles).

Sounds like a big hassle. But, it isn't. I've lived with the above system in churches with attendance of 15 to 20! It is just a matter of setting up procedure.

Accountability! Get it in place now, or there WILL be an incident where money is misused. Then, giving will cease. How would that help god or man?

 

[SiBurning]

Protect yourself. Go to your bank and have them stop the checks. Unfortunately, they'll probably charge you for this. Your bank will advice you further. There's probably no need to change the account. Don't use an electronic deposit because that often works both ways. I went through something similar twice, once some checks were forged and cashed, and this is what they advised me. Someone could be stealing checks here and there with intent to hold onto them until they have a large amount. Laws change, so ask the bank what to do.

 

[BCatl]

True. But, an audit is a function that can be performed by anyone. It doesn't have to be an audit by an accountant. Just ask someone who is not associated with the church in any way to review the numbers.

An "audit" can be performed by the church members themselves. In fact, every dollar donated, (wiped of any connection to donater names), should be present in a financial statement. And, that financial statement should be open property of every church member.

Every dollar donated is counted by two.
The amount received immediately recorded in a public record of some type.
The amount of money recorded in the public record/book reconciled with monthly financial statement (producible by many free software titles).

Sounds like a big hassle. But, it isn't. I've lived with the above system in churches with attendance of 15 to 20! It is just a matter of setting up procedure.

Accountability! Get it in place now, or there WILL be an incident where money is misused. Then, giving will cease. How would that help god or man?

Good points. I agree with you.

 

[Dustinl]

I truly doubt that you are the only one this is happening to. My guess is that either someone in congregation is stealing certain checks from the plate or knows where the pastor's wife is keeping them and taking them from thee, or that there is some kind of account-number harvesting game going on. Or, perhaps someone is keeping these checks and holding them for awhile before cashing them in the hope that you'll forget about them after awhile.

This is what I believe. I honestly don't think the pastors's wife is doing anything with the checks. One clearing and one not from the same envelope is odd though. But I believe with all my heart that she is sincere and God-filled. I have been emailing back and forth with the pastor this morning. He wants to bring it up to the congregation, in which I have asked him not to. I trust him with all my heart. I really do. His replies lead me to think that it is coming from the usher level. In other words, his wife puts the money bag in her desk or a filing cabinet. As once being the head usher myself, I can tell you I had access to her office, desk, and filing cabinet. In fact, there was no part of our church that I didn't have access to. So I'm just wondering.

I appreciate ALL of your replies. The posts were kept on topic and none got ugly. Some were hard for me to read, but I knew some would be. Your replies had a direct influence on my emails to the pastor this morning. I really thank you guys.


DL

 

[The Nid Hog]

Good luck!

 

[Spivey]

Dustin, you're a good guy and I'm glad you're here.