7-O'Clock Safety Razor - England - Info Needed

[Snargle]

I found this beautiful, cased, silver-plated "7-O'Clock" Safety Razor this morning at a local flea market. It's made in England and has patent numbers dated 1911-1912. It appears to take a proprietary single-edge blade (unfortunately not included). There is a leather strop built into the case under the top lid. Other than some wear and tear on the case, the razor itself appears to be mint, with only some light tarnish.

On-line data for this particular razor appears to be pretty scarce, so I'm asking for any help in providing information about the company and this particular model. I saw an unconfirmed statement that these were manufactured by Auto-Strop. If anyone knows what modern blades can be used (or modified for use), I'd appreciate it. It's a beautiful razor and will make a nice addition to my collection.

 

[Tanuki]

What a find! Despine a Gem and get out the snips? Watch your fingers.

 

[BBS-1]

It looks like something made after the Autostrop merger with Gillette. 7 O'clock was Gillette brand just like Autostrop after the merger so it is very possible this razor was produced by their Autostrop division and branded as a 7 O'clock if this particular razor was made post 1930.

As far as a blade goes looks like it can use a despined Gem. If for some reason it won't take one then use a Feather FHS-10 instead which is the blade with the cutouts in it that fit the proprietary cutouts on later model Autostrops.

The hunt begins now for one of these razors for my personal use.

 

[razorboi]

Regret I cannot agree with BBS-1's opinion.
It does not look like a post-1930's Auto-Strop, aside from a passing similarity to the retaining tangs. It is by all appearances an earlier design.
I don't believe it has anything to do with Auto-Strop as it utilises a different stropping system and Auto-strop was manufacturing its own razor sets in England from a very early date.
I also don't believe it has anything to do with Gillette as this razor clearly pre-dates Gillette's acquisition of the 7 O'Clock company in the 1930's by evidence of its early closed-comb design. The braces appear to support the head during stropping.
The only thing troubling me is the patent dates. My information is that the 7 O'Clock company was established in about 1915 and the patents date from 1911-12. I could be wrong about 7 O'Clock's inception or, they acquired the patent of a fore-runner or another company.
Gillette essentially bought out 7 O'Clock in the 1930's because they were a blade competitor.
7 O'Clock invented the slot pattern whilst incorporating Gillette's three-hole punch, thus securing an advantage. Gillette was then forced to re-design their blades to include slots.
It's possible that a Gem blade will fit it. You may need to de-spine it and possibly snip the corners. If a Gem is a loose fit, then it was designed for a wedge blade. No need to consider a Feather FHS-10 as your razor does not contain any of the proprietary tabs found on 1930's Auto-Strops.
Anyway, congratulations on a beautiful and very interesting antique razor!

 

[BBS-1]

Pursuing the internet I found this picture. This razor was most certainly made 1930 or later post Gillette merger with Autostrop under the 7 O'clock brand. There is no way Autostrop would have been making 7 O'clock branded razors unless both were divisions of Gillette by this point.

With that said I don't know who holds those patents but would not be surprised if they belong to 7 O'clock and they made razors like these pre Gillette merger with a different head design.

 

[riverrun]

The patents are British:
Espacenet - Original document
Espacenet - Original document

According to Waits' Compendium, they were made by "AutoStrop Safety Razor Co., Ltd., London, England", Trademark first used 13 Feb 1913.

 

[BBS-1]

As far as the tangs goes the patents were applied for by Henry Gaisman in 1924 and granted in 1927. if 7 O'clock had the idea first he would have been infringing on their intellectual property and as such the whole Gillette Autostrop merger may not have went down the way it did.

US1639335A - Blade holder - Google Patents

 

[BBS-1]

The patents are British:
Espacenet - Original document
Espacenet - Original document

According to Waits' Compendium, they were made by "AutoStrop Safety Razor Co., Ltd., London, England", Trademark first used 13 Feb 1913.

Thanks, I didn't know where to search for early British patents.

 

[riverrun]

Thanks, I didn't know where to search for early British patents.

"Where" is easy. "How" (turning the patent number into a search term) is tricky.
I've had a little experience searching for patents.

 

[Salty O'Rourke]

See this thread for the full skinny on this razor, which does date from the mid-teens. Discussion of blades begins with post #31 by yours truly.

 

[razorboi]

...This razor was most certainly made 1930 or later post Gillette merger with Autostrop under the 7 O'clock brand. There is no way Autostrop would have been making 7 O'clock branded razors unless both were divisions of Gillette by this point.
With that said I don't know who holds those patents but would not be surprised if they belong to 7 O'clock and they made razors like these pre Gillette merger with a different head design.

View attachment 1013228

Jack Gaisman (an American) created both the Auto-Strop Company AND the 7 O'Clock company.
The Auto-Strop company was an American creation, but he soon set up shop in both Canada and England before WWI under that name.
The 7 O'Clock company was a British company and set up in 1914-5 by Gaisman. Thus, he owned both companies long before the merger with Gillette.
Auto-Strop and 7 O'Clock could share patents without fear of infringement as they were related companies. However, Auto-Strop was known for its unique stropping system and 7 O'Clock never used that system. Conversely, Auto-Strop never used any stropping system but its own, so it never shared in 7 O'Clock's stropping system. In other words, each company used its own stropping system.
The fact that both 7 O'Clock and Auto-strop appear on the same packaging only indicates a merger or sharing of resources between them and does nothing to establish any involvement with Gillette.
Thus, I cannot agree with your statement that "There is no way Autostrop would have been making 7 O'clock branded razors unless both were divisions of Gillette by this point."
Many thanks to @riverrun for supplying the original patent information, which clearly shows this very razor (as in both your and the original poster's photos) on pages 8-10 of the patent application of 1911. I knew just from the style of it that it was far earlier than the 1930's. In fact, it has more in common with a Kampfe, Star or early Gem, than any 1930's razor.
Your reference to Gaisman's patent for a design inclusive of tangs is misplaced. That was merely an improvement to the Valet Auto-Strop and unrelated to the 7 O'Clock design of 1911, which already had its own tangs, substantially different in form and function from those of the Valet Auto-Strop.
A close examination reveals that the early Auto-Strop and 7 O'Clock designs were very similar and shared certain key patented features, such as the mechanism for opening and closing the shave head. Where they differed was in their stropping methods. The Auto-Strop was self-contained, with the strop passing through the razor. The 7 O'Clock opened up so the blade could be stropped on a flat stropping board, contained in the case.
In summary, this was a 1911 design, put out by 7 O'Clock probably as early as 1914-15. I cannot say how long it was in production, but it would have looked quite dated by 1930, if it was even still around then.

 

[Snargle]

Thanks, everyone, for the very interesting and informative comments.

I think, for now, I'll not be messing around with modifying blades or other gymnastics with sharp edges and stick with just admiring this razor as an attractive antique member of my collection. I've got dozens of other great razors for everyday use so there's no need to take a chance of damaging or adding wear on this great collectible.

 

[BBS-1]

Jack Gaisman (an American) created both the Auto-Strop Company AND the 7 O'Clock company.
The Auto-Strop company was an American creation, but he soon set up shop in both Canada and England before WWI under that name.
The 7 O'Clock company was a British company and set up in 1914-5 by Gaisman. Thus, he owned both companies long before the merger with Gillette.
Auto-Strop and 7 O'Clock could share patents without fear of infringement as they were related companies. However, Auto-Strop was known for its unique stropping system and 7 O'Clock never used that system. Conversely, Auto-Strop never used any stropping system but its own, so it never shared in 7 O'Clock's stropping system. In other words, each company used its own stropping system.
The fact that both 7 O'Clock and Auto-strop appear on the same packaging only indicates a merger or sharing of resources between them and does nothing to establish any involvement with Gillette.
Thus, I cannot agree with your statement that "There is no way Autostrop would have been making 7 O'clock branded razors unless both were divisions of Gillette by this point."
Many thanks to @riverrun for supplying the original patent information, which clearly shows this very razor (as in both your and the original poster's photos) on pages 8-10 of the patent application of 1911. I knew just from the style of it that it was far earlier than the 1930's. In fact, it has more in common with a Kampfe, Star or early Gem, than any 1930's razor.
Your reference to Gaisman's patent for a design inclusive of tangs is misplaced. That was merely an improvement to the Valet Auto-Strop and unrelated to the 7 O'Clock design of 1911, which already had its own tangs, substantially different in form and function from those of the Valet Auto-Strop.
A close examination reveals that the early Auto-Strop and 7 O'Clock designs were very similar and shared certain key patented features, such as the mechanism for opening and closing the shave head. Where they differed was in their stropping methods. The Auto-Strop was self-contained, with the strop passing through the razor. The 7 O'Clock opened up so the blade could be stropped on a flat stropping board, contained in the case.
In summary, this was a 1911 design, put out by 7 O'Clock probably as early as 1914-15. I cannot say how long it was in production, but it would have looked quite dated by 1930, if it was even still around then.

I had no idea Gaisman was also involved with 7 O'clock from it's inception. Whether one was a division of the other or separate companies there would have been no issue then with them sharing or using proprietary information like Gaisman's patents. The only point I am going to disagree with you here is on the date of this razor not that 7 O'clock put out a razor like this as early as possibly 1911 - 1915 time frame. I am going to say 1924 or later for this particular razor because of the style of the tangs based upon the US patent. If someone wants to dig through the British patents for the same blade holder to find if it predates this have at it.

 

[Salty O'Rourke]

I had no idea Gaisman was also involved with 7 O'clock from it's inception. Whether one was a division of the other or separate companies there would have been no issue then with them sharing or using proprietary information like Gaisman's patents. The only point I am going to disagree with you here is on the date of this razor not that 7 O'clock put out a razor like this as early as possibly 1911 - 1915 time frame. I am going to say 1924 or later for this particular razor because of the style of the tangs based upon the US patent. If someone wants to dig through the British patents for the same blade holder to find if it predates this have at it.

I don't have time to take a photo this morning, but my 7 O'Clock SE razor is clearly stamped Patents applied for 1911 No. 27943 1912 No. 4079 with Made in England on the inside of the blade bed just as the OP's razor has. The really cool feature of this razor is the twist-to-lock knob at the end of the handle that secured the blade from flipping up until stropping was required. I just wish the US Auto Strop blade design would have been used for this razor; as it is, neither a Feather SE nor a de-spined GEM blade are suitable replacements for the original blade - the GEM is too short and the Feather/Valet blade is so long it overhangs the comb.

 

[razorboi]

...I just wish the US Auto Strop blade design would have been used for this razor; as it is, neither a Feather SE nor a de-spined GEM blade are suitable replacements for the original blade - the GEM is too short and the Feather/Valet blade is so long it overhangs the comb.

I have yet to come across the original blades that were made for this razor, but the 7 O'Clock brand in England may have been the only manufacturer.
One member has found a work-around using modern blades:

The Autostrop 7 O'Clock posed me with a peculiar problem ...
Being an Autostrop, I presumed a modern Feather would fit being a copy of the original Valet blade.

... swing the arms shut.

... and WHOA!!! That's aggressive!

The arms have semi-circular lobes which lock the blade in place in the locating holes at the side of the blade.
With the arms open and the blade pushed all the way back, it could work ...

So, let's take a GEM and nibble out enough to fit ...

... alas, the opposite issue:

Stumped and annoyed, I cleaned up the razor and vowed to use it with the Feather blade and the arms open. Ugly, but practical.

Eureka! Modify the Feather ... duh!...
X
...Since the blade holds perfectly resting at the very back of the razor, the lobes lift it up and away from the back. So, nibble enough off for the arms to swing shut without the lobes engaging.
It worked!

... and very well, too. This is quite probably my favourite single edge now: the Valet build with the 1912 noise.
I hope this is useful for folks who are posed with an odd razor and only a couple of choices. Understand the engineering and adapt as appropriate.

 

[razorboi]

I came across this photo of blades. The tuck for 7 O'Clock may be the blade that fits your razor. Note that it is of smaller dimensions than the double-edged blades next to it. The back of the tuck is blank. Unfortunately, no photo of the blade itself. The common green 7 O'Clock tucks are all double-edged blades, as far as I've seen.

 

[Grassy]

Here is a picture of the original blade with a despined Gem and a Feather.The Feather is too aggressive and the Gem too mild. I was thinking, when I get round to it, I might try to put a needle behind the Gem blade, longways in the holder, to get the correct exposure

 

[BBS-1]

Here is an ad from 1916 for the 7 o'clock razor. Notice no tangs on the razor. So I am going with the particular razor the original poster here was asking about was made sometime after 1924 when the US patent for that style of blade holder was first submitted. Also notice no mention of Autostrop as the manufacturer so most likely whether Gaisman was involved directly with both companies or not they were seperate entities at this point. Most likely the companies merged sometime later on with 7 o'clock becoming a division of Autostrop just like later on when Autostrop merged with Gillette, Autostrop became an division of Gillette.

 

[razorboi]

Here is an ad from 1916 for the 7 o'clock razor. Notice no tangs on the razor. So I am going with the particular razor the original poster here was asking about was made sometime after 1924 when the US patent for that style of blade holder was first submitted. Also notice no mention of Autostrop as the manufacturer so most likely whether Gaisman was involved directly with both companies or not they were seperate entities at this point. Most likely the companies merged sometime later on with 7 o'clock becoming a division of Autostrop just like later on when Autostrop merged with Gillette, Autostrop became an division of Gillette.

View attachment 1015665 View attachment 1015666 View attachment 1015667

I don't know exactly what it is you're just not getting.

If you actually look at the 1911 British Auto-Strop patent information supplied (as a link) by @riverrun, you will see patent drawings of the very same 7 O'Clock razor the OP is enquiring about.
There you will see in the drawings the very same "tangs," just like the OP's tangs.
Correctly, they are arms, not tangs, because they do not hold the blade in.
Those 1911 arms don't look like the arms on the 1924 U.S. Auto-strop patent.
Those 1911 arms operate in a slightly different way.
Those 1911 arms don't have side-tabs.
It's the hubs hold the key to their function.
The hubs contain semi-circular lobes that go into the cut-outs on the sides of the blade to hold it in. The arms are just something for the user to grasp and turn to engage or disengage the lobes. When the arms are closed inward, the blade is locked in. When the arms are opened out, the blade is disengaged and can be removed. Take a look at the post I included from @pjgh on 3 Sept wherein he describes how they work.
Look at the pictures...

[BTW: He also describes how the modern Feather blade (which you recommended to the OP) doesn't fit this razor.]

The 1924 U.S. Auto-strop patent is essentially a successor to the 1911 design. The arms are shaped differently and have side-tabs but serve the same function as the 1911 arms.
The OP's razor has the 1911 arms, not the 1924 arms. Compare them yourself!

Also, you are mistaken as to the ad you show. That razor does have arms! As does this one from 1915:

and all others. They didn't make one without arms. That's how they held the blade in!

Moreover, you're completely misguided by the 1924 patent. It is a U.S. patent and as such has no applicability to a razor manufactured and sold in England, even after 1924!
Actually, I believe Gaisman was essentially filing a U.S. patent in 1924 for a modified version of the old 7 O'Clock blade-retention arm design for prospective use in his American Auto-Strop razors. At the time, the Auto-Strop had a complicated (and easily damaged) swinging door mechanism for holding the blade. In the early to mid-thirties he did change the Auto-Strop design to use the arm system instead of the door system, but that was almost a decade after he filed the patent.

You are also mistaken in concluding that because your ad makes no mention of Auto-Strop, that they were not affiliated at that time. Note that the address of the manufacturer in your 7 O'Clock ad is the very same address as in this contemporary British Auto-Strop ad, i.e. 61 New Oxford Street, London:

The two companies shared the same address in London!
And you wonder whether Gaisman was "directly involved" with these companies, or not?
He started both of them.
He owned both of them.
When he got control of Gillette, he owned and controlled all three of them.
That's why Auto-Strop and 7 O'Clock were not killed off after the merger and rebranded as Gillette product.

As to the date of the OP's razor, I can only note that the logo-type on the case differs somewhat from those in the ads of 1915-18, so it could be later than that.
However, I could find no ads for this razor later than 1918-9.
I believe a greater resource of ads, catalogues, or internal company info would be needed to more correctly date the original poster's razor, but from what I can gather, it's essentially World War I era.