$10,000 question

[silvertip beard]

In 30 years, will the stalwart Mengai blends of newer vintage (such as 7542, 7532, and 8582) taste anything like a 30-year old tea tastes today?

I realize this is a question without an answer...yet. Thoughts and reflections on the topic are welcome.

I just find this an interesting notion to ponder.

Along similar lines, my new motto is "No More Tweaked Tea!".

 

[ouch]

At the rate I'm buying them, it will be more than a $10,000 question. Only one way to know for sure........


If it makes you feel any better, I thought the same thing about all of the wine I bought in the 80's and 90's- could they turn out as great as the classic older vintages? Short answer- yep.

 

[Maitre_Tea]

IMO, yes and no

Sure, they'll both be similar in that they're both aged, but will one be better than the other? Now that's a difficult question to answer. I think there are two camps: those who hoard young, and those who buy old. There may be a connection, but I find that many people with less than five years experience usually falls in the former. Although collectors have seen improvements in the aging of their cakes in just a year or so, but is there a correlation between the short-run and long-run?

It's been argued that there has been a decline in quality over the years, which I think is more complicated. The material might have been better back than, but perhaps processing techniques are more refined now than they were back then. Since technology was cruder in the 70s/80s, quality control and batch consistency might have been more difficult to achieve. Also, I recall reading somewhere that until the 90s or so (after DXP came into power) factories could only harvest from plantation trees...so maybe quality hasn't declined as much.

Of course, not many people have tasted a an 80s sheng when it just came out and also tasted a '09 sheng, and I don't think there are any people like that in the western world. I think the biggest change has probably been the decline of water quality being used in processing, which would make a huge difference in the product outcome.

Hypothetically, say if the new cakes now aren't as good as a 30-year cake taste now...what can you do about it? The supply of 30 year old tea is dwindling fast or is being hoarded by filthy rich HK tea collectors. Even if quality has declined, we'll just have to suck it up and accept it...because there won't be any other old tea around.

Just my 2 cents

 

[netsurfr]

I think that your tea has great potential to taste like a 30 year old tea does today. However, the major factor may be the storage conditions of the tea.

 

[Erik]

My current thoughts...


Today's tea is processed in a more refined manner that the tea from 30 years ago.

Newer teas seem to have age pre-built into them.

This may mean that our current teas will reach their peak in fewer years than the teas of the '80s and '70s.

The real question is will our current teas at their peak be as good as the older teas when they reached their respective peak?

 

[silvertip beard]

I think that your tea has great potential to taste like a 30 year old tea does today. However, the major factor may be the storage conditions of the tea.

For long-term storage, I'm going with the kerosene-stained cardboard boxes in the garage above the grill!

 

[netsurfr]

For long-term storage, I'm going with the kerosene-stained cardboard boxes in the garage above the grill!

That's what I'm talking about! The finest conditions...

 

[ouch]

Maitre Tea makes some interesting points. If you're sick of wine analogies, stop reading now.

The French have one of the most impressive models when it comes to classifying wines. It is by no means perfect, but the fact that many of the wines classified in 1855 are still around today is amazing. I wish China had such a system for pu'er.

Two things will always be important- potential and result. Château Lafite Rothschild is a first growth because it has the potential to produce some of the greatest wines even thought that is, sadly, seldom the case. Wines may be elevated in stature either officially (Château Mouton Rothschild, 1973) or informally (Château Lynch-Bages, always better than its fifth growth standing). If you live in Long Island, you are simply not going to produce anything on a level with these wines. If you stand in the center of Bonnes Mares and hurl a rock with all your might, it will land in a spot designated as a village level Chambolle-Musigny and command a fraction of the price. I'm sure that there are folks in China who have extensive knowledge regarding the historical potential of many pu'er growing areas, down to specific spots, but if this is written down somewhere (and I'm sure it is) I haven't encountered it yet.

But this is only the potential. Realizing the potential is even more important, as well as more elusive. Many factors will conspire against your success, and you will acheive different results each year. Sometimes the gods smile on you, sometimes they frown. It's nice to look at the past through rose colored glasses, but I'm sure the same problems were around at different periods of time. Is the water better or worse today? Pollution dumps a ton of crap on everything, but water treatment plants should be ever improving. The trees are getting older, and that's a good thing. There should be no reason why top notch tea shouldn't be able to be produced today or tomorrow, but it's always going to be hit or miss.

I say just buy a lot and keep drinking it.

 

[silvertip beard]

Some good thoughts here.

The question I have been pondering has been more related to the potential of the newer vintages of the classic recipes to age well.

I have not yet gotten to ponder the second (and arguably more complex) set of questions. Now my brain hurts!

For me, I am preferring dry storage methods using standard precautions. There seems to be ample evidence to support this approach.

 

[P_K]

Most wines, as I understand, are meant to be consumed upon release. I believe I read up to 95% of them. Puerh is changing due to changes in taste and market forces. People don't want to wait 10,20 or more years to enjoy a good wine or tea. That's why things like micro-oxygenation have been used to accelerate the maturity of wine. Even some esteemed vintnerns have decided to use this on some wines. So I think that the "tweeking" of teas is somewhat analogous. In the future it may be just as accepted as micro-ox is in the wine world.

 

[thanks]

Most wines, as I understand, are meant to be consumed upon release. I believe I read up to 95% of them. Puerh is changing due to changes in taste and market forces. People don't want to wait 10,20 or more years to enjoy a good wine or tea. That's why things like micro-oxygenation have been used to accelerate the maturity of wine. Even some esteemed vintnerns have decided to use this on some wines. So I think that the "tweeking" of teas is somewhat analogous. In the future it may be just as accepted as micro-ox is in the wine world.

I don't know enough about wines to argue your analogy head-on, but I will say that newer teas are absolutely nothing like their well aged counterparts. Tweaking the teas so that they're more palatable from the get go is truly an interesting topic. You're essentially removing the soul from the tea, so it has no legs to stand on in the long run, but it may be more enjoyable to certain people than buying aged or waiting for their ageable cakes to finally be ready. I think there is room for them to coexist, but I wish we could figure out what qualities guarantee potential for aging and what don't. After we figure that out, then it could be something you could mark a cake with. There is something about well aged pu'er you just can't duplicate with shu or any other known process. The feeling, the taste, the mouth feel, the aromas, etc. It can truly be an ineffable experience. I don't even bother with tweaked teas anymore as they don't really offer me any surprises in taste, my stomach can't handle them on a daily basis, and there's no potential for aging. I wish the pu'er market was back to how it used to be before we ever even heard of it where no one bought young teas but merchants and storage warehouses so there was a constant flow of well aged tea going for cheap prices. It's unfortunately far from that now, so we just have to pick out adolescent cakes with some years on them and see if they're aging well enough to purchase, cross our fingers and hope for the best. I think also that people forget just how much tea an entire bing of pu'er is as well. It's almost a pound, so even if your collection just consists of three aged cakes, you're still pretty well off. For now I'm perfectly content collecting, waiting, and in the meantime enjoying the vast world of other teas out there while occasionally treating myself to nice aged pu'er or trying out newer ones to see if they're worthy of purchase.

 

[apache]

I agree with "thanks" for this, aged tea is so much nicer to drink than the recent year sheng. It is hard going to drink young sheng during winter. I wish there are labels clearly mark which tea is made for aging and which for drink now. I think there are better chance for cakes made before 2004 will aged nicely.

 

[Maitre_Tea]

I wish there are labels clearly mark which tea is made for aging and which for drink now.

nah, that would make it too easy

 

[nada]

First of all, hi - this is a great forum, with some interesting topics being discussed. I've been browsing for a while now, but never got around to posting.

I wanted to mention a few things which need to be taken into account with answering this question. I've thought a lot about this, especially when walking past shops selling new 7542's for just a few £. I've been tempted just to buy a case or two of the stuff and forget about it for 30 years. After all it's so cheap, why not?

There are several reasons I have held back.

The first and most significant for me is pesticides. I seem to be blessed or cursed with a sensitive throat & find that drinking large factory productions and most non-organic teas in general leave me with a rough, tight and sometimes painful throat. I tend to rely upon this indicator to steer me clear of teas which will harm me in the long run. Unfortunately none of the newer big factory productions I've tasted have passed this throat test. In fact I've noticed a distinct change in Dayi productions since 1996 (when Menghai Tea factory started production in a major way of their Dayi branded products). After this time - the teas start to hurt my throat. I wonder incidentally if this change in the factory towards commercialization around this time coincided with introduction of new fertilizer and pesticide policies for the tea they were growing and processing.

Secondly, overharvesting. During the puerh boom especially, plantations (and many old trees) were overharvested, overfertilized and pushed beyond their natural limits. This lead to weak leaves, lacking in the energy that makes puerh so special for me.

Thirdly, why bother? I don't really enjoy drinking them now. Why should I believe that there'll be any redeemable qualities that will emerge with storage. There are so many great cakes made by small producers from old growth trees that are pleasant to drink that I don't see the point in storing some low quality cakes. If I'm going to hang on to something for 20 years, why not try to start with as good a base as possible.

Fourth, storage. There's something magical about the heat and humidity of south Asia. Especially in summer, you can walk into a room filled with puerh and it's alive. The smell is thick and the room is full of energy of the teas fermenting - the microbes in overdrive, in their optimal conditions. This is natural and a far cry from a wardrobe in the west with an artificial humidifier stuck in the bottom. Kunming has so many dry teas. There's not a lot of old tea there, but those that are and have spent their life there have aged at a fraction of the pace and feel lacking in energy and life. On the other hand, I've noticed some good results form the tea I've been storing in the UK so far. I've been doing a side by side comparison of cakes stored in UK and Taiwan since new - the Taiwan cakes are aging much faster, but there's noticeable change within a few years of UK stored cakes. The UK storage also seems to nicely mellow out wet storage flavours from cakes which have been a bit too humidly stored.

Fifth. I enjoy old growth tea so much more. This is just my personal preference, but I find so much more depth, refinement, energy in these old growth teas that I don't want to drink plantation tea so much.

Sixth. If storing for commercial reasons I think many people are in for a disappointment. The reason why 20-30 year old teas are so expensive is because of a shortage of supply - they're simply too rare to keep up with demand. That won't be the case in 20-30 years for present day teas. Major major investors, wholesalers and other tycoons are hoarding tea in a way that puts any of our attempts to shame. Sure, the price will rise, but not (I think) in a way that makes our storage of these teas worthwhile from a monetary point of view.

There are more reasons. I guess for me the major one is the issue of pesticides. This is the area that I think has changed the most in this modern age. I see no benefit in storing something which may be harmful to my body. Why ingest these chemicals? They're produced for one reason - to kill. Although they may not kill me (at least not immediately), there is no reason to think that they'll be anything other than harmful to my body. Aside from the personal harm, they're also harming the environment - killing insect populations and harming the whole ecosystem of the growing regions. Why should I support this with my cash?

I thought I'd share these thoughts. I'm always hesitant about posting on forums since some will feel I have some commercial motives behind my words, but this is an interesting subject & one I've thought a lot about.

nada.

 

[Scotto]

Welcome, Nada! You'll find lots of pu'er enthusiasts here, and little attitude. Please stick around.

 

[apache]

Thank you very much for posting you opinion on this, nada, it nice to know what you think about this and I agree with you there is a big different between teas made before pu'erh boom and after the boom from major factories.

 

[Maitre_Tea]

I think one of the concerns I have with collecting pre-boom stuff is that it can get pretty expensive...and as time goes on, it's going to be even more expensive (and rarer). You get to a point where all the good old tea is being hoarded, so a lot of people are crowded out of this opportunity, so they have to turn to newer stuff. In a perfect world I would only buy pre-boom era, but then I look at my paycheck and realize that I have bills to pay. The circumstances now make it suck for anybody who's starting to drink/collect pu-erh in the post-boom era.

Including me

 

[nada]

Thanks for the warm welcomes.

Maitre_tea: I think it's the feeling that one should be building up a collection that is the precursor to expense. One can drink older puerh fairly regularly without it being a major expense on a day to day basis. It's the need to accumulate that starts to get expensive.

 

[Maitre_Tea]

Nada,

True, but building a "collection" is a part of collecting pu-erh, and seeing firsthand the changes that go on. I have you to thank for more affordable older pu-erh, such as your Grand Yellow Label. I hope you fill find more examples of more affordable older tea in the future.

 

[nada]

hehe, I agree - it's hard to resist the urge to collect. The 90's are where it's at for me at the moment - I think there are some great cakes out there that are still reasonably priced and starting to feel aged. I'm off back to Taiwan in a month or so to try to find exactly those cakes before the 90's starts to feel like 2 decades ago.