The Key

[JHP]

Great thread. Wanted to give it a bump and ask a question.

When you refer to your DMT 1200, it appears you are referring to this product in "Extra-Fine" -

http://www.dmtonlinestore.com/8-Dia-Sharp-Continuous-Diamond-Bench-Stone-P15.aspx

In reading this thread it seems as though there are more references to the DMT than other stones. Why do some of you like this better than a Norton or Naniwa 1000? I'm in the market! Need your feedback. Understand that it's just one man's opinion!

Thanks!

Josh

 

[The Mick]

Counting is so your brain stays engaged. Counting has MOJO!

I would have to say that there is a lot more "Mojo" in Feeling when the razor is done then counting when it's done.

 

[The Mick]

Great thread. Wanted to give it a bump and ask a question.

When you refer to your DMT 1200, it appears you are referring to this product in "Extra-Fine" -

http://www.dmtonlinestore.com/8-Dia-Sharp-Continuous-Diamond-Bench-Stone-P15.aspx

In reading this thread it seems as though there are more references to the DMT than other stones. Why do some of you like this better than a Norton or Naniwa 1000? I'm in the market! Need your feedback. Understand that it's just one man's opinion!

Thanks!

Josh

There is no maintenance with DMT's no lapping to keep them flat.

As a matter of fact a lot of people use the DMT 325 for lapping their wet stones.

 

[alpster]

The bevel once was lost
But now it shaves
Was blunt, but now is keen...

Swing low
To a lower grit
Coming for to bevel me hone....

 

[Seraphim]

Nice!

 

[GeneC]

AFAIK, this is scientific, not so much mojo. You want the bevel at 10-15-20, whatever degrees. That's a specific angle. I use a angle finder.

Then the key is getting the edge exactly in the center of the bevel. Honing pushes the edge off center, what some refer to as the bur( not technically a bur). Honing simply pushes the edge from one side to the other( as you flip it over). This could go on forever. IMO, you have to be able to see the edge up close. Once you get the edge centered, then the key is to polish the scratches out with finer and finer hones/medium.

The concept is pretty simple, right?

 

[blackhhawk]

Bumping this thread to avoid making a new one. Read through everything. I have been having trouble getting a sharp edge from my king 1k. In addition to everything looking uniform on the bevel (same width down the whole edge), the razor should be SHARP before moving on to other stones, right? I'm going to give it another try tonight, but my razors have NOT been able to pop arm hairs/leg hairs/whatever hairs/HHT or anything from my king 1k hone. I should not move on until this has been accomplished, correct?

 

[jrp316]

Bumping this thread to avoid making a new one. Read through everything. I have been having trouble getting a sharp edge from my king 1k. In addition to everything looking uniform on the bevel (same width down the whole edge), the razor should be SHARP before moving on to other stones, right? I'm going to give it another try tonight, but my razors have NOT been able to pop arm hairs/leg hairs/whatever hairs/HHT or anything from my king 1k hone. I should not move on until this has been accomplished, correct?

Correct. Don't move on from the bevel setter until the razor can easily pop arm/leg hair. Have you had a chance to try the marker test and see the results?

 

[Seraphim]

Often times setting the bevel takes much more work than you expect.

The first 90% of setting the bevel takes the first 90% of the time.

The last 10% of setting the bevel takes the other 90% of the time.

Really, wail on that 1K until the edge cries "uncle!". Don't be shy.

 

[blackhhawk]

Correct. Don't move on from the bevel setter until the razor can easily pop arm/leg hair. Have you had a chance to try the marker test and see the results?

I didn't bother with the razor I worked on 2 nights ago as I didn't notice any kind of problem with warping. I just had trouble getting it sharp enough. I don't know if I need to use a lot less presure with a LOT more x strokes, but getting it sharp enough to do any of that just hasn't happened yet for me. I can't figure out why.

 

[Seraphim]

You are setting the bevel. Using pressure is fine. You are trying to remove metal at this stage, not refine an edge to perfection.

 

[Doc226]

Often times setting the bevel takes much more work than you expect.

The first 90% of setting the bevel takes the first 90% of the time.

The last 10% of setting the bevel takes the other 90% of the time.

Really, wail on that 1K until the edge cries "uncle!". Don't be shy.

This is 110% correct-LOL

You can't think the bevel (ie cutting edge) is set, once you think it is set, hone a little more, once you are sure it is set, give it a few more laps. If you do this well, the rest is easy peasy

 

[drmatt357]

I think this is why many folks, myself included, get some great shavers out of the $20 EBay finds (or GDs for that matter), since there is not much to be lost, you can really wail on that thing on the bevel setting hone.

Yes!!!!! +1million billion

 

[Mer]

OK, I'm obsessing about spine wear when setting the bevel. It seems like no tape is the most popular choice so that's what I'm going with. How much spine wear should I expect? I've messed around with a couple of ebay specials and it seems like the spine is getting all the wear compared to the edge. Maybe I'm doing it right and this comes with the territory. I've got no problem digging in and getting the job done but want to fix any bad habits early on.

 

[Slash McCoy]

AFAIK, this is scientific, not so much mojo. You want the bevel at 10-15-20, whatever degrees. That's a specific angle. I use a angle finder.

Then the key is getting the edge exactly in the center of the bevel. Honing pushes the edge off center, what some refer to as the bur( not technically a bur). Honing simply pushes the edge from one side to the other( as you flip it over). This could go on forever. IMO, you have to be able to see the edge up close. Once you get the edge centered, then the key is to polish the scratches out with finer and finer hones/medium.

The concept is pretty simple, right?

HUH?

How in the world would you get a 10 degree bevel on a razor? The spine would have to be removed first!

As a newbie, you really don't need to worry too much about what the bevel angle is. Simply HONE, with the spine and the edge on the hone, and your bevel will be consistent with the design parameters of the razor. More or less, due to wear. You really have no choice in what angle to use. You can't use a more acute angle. The spine won't let you. You don't want to use a more obtuse angle. Unless you want to use your razor for scaling fish. I think you need to do a little more research on straight razor honing. Someone has really got you lost, IMHO. YMMV.

Your final statement is more or less correct. The concept is indeed simple. Place razor on rock or film. Rub off all steel that is not part of the new bevel. Continue on finer media until polish is satisfactory. All else is just technical details that vary among different honers. But no, you don't use an "angle finder".

 

[Slash McCoy]

OK, I'm obsessing about spine wear when setting the bevel. It seems like no tape is the most popular choice so that's what I'm going with. How much spine wear should I expect? I've messed around with a couple of ebay specials and it seems like the spine is getting all the wear compared to the edge. Maybe I'm doing it right and this comes with the territory. I've got no problem digging in and getting the job done but want to fix any bad habits early on.

Trust me... you are removing as much metal from the edge as you are from the spine.

If you could somehow drill a tiny hole right at the beginning of the edge bevel, and another one right at the back edge of the spine bevel, measure the thickness of the blade precisely at those two points, and hone hone hone until your bevel is set, and then re-measure, you would see that you are indeed removing metal from the edge, as well as from the spine. It is just more obvious at the spine than at the edge. If no steel was removed from the edge, it would never get sharp.

If you expect the bevel angle to remain unchanged, you must have spine and edge wear in proportion to each other. So when you are doing routine honing, you get a tiny bit of spine wear. When you set a bevel on a badly used razor, or hone out a chip, you get a lot of spine wear. If you get none, but a lot of edge wear, you significantly change the bevel angle, making it more obtuse.

Your razor, though. But I suggest not worrying about it. It will all be okay. Just you see. 40 years from now, that razor will still shave, however much spine wear it has. Of course it will likely be 1/4" narrower, but it will still shave.

 

[Slash McCoy]

"HELP!"

I watched Slash McCoy's honing videos last night, and it was helpful to see the effort he put in to setting the bevel. Do most of you follow his method of half strokes on each side to first raise a burr, and then full strokes to remove the burr?

I believe I hold a minority view on this. Not a lot of guys use this method. In fact, I don't always use it. I show it and recommend it, because it is the most surefire way for a newbie to get the bevel set the first time around. 9 times out of 10, when a new guy honing his first razor cries "HELP!", it is because either his bevel setter is not flat, or he simply failed to set the bevel. He thought, "well, that's 40 laps, that must be enough". Next time, he says, "Well, that's 80 laps, so that REALLY must be enough... so NOW what is keeping my razor from getting sharp?" Then the next time, he says, "That's a total of 200 laps so far on my 4k... I know the bevel is set! It even shaved off an arm hair or two! Now what is wrong? Even after my 20k Suehiro, my razor just doesn't feel sharp at all! I am so disgusted with this black magic voodoo hoodoo hocus pocus mysticism I am going back to my Mach III!"

Well, the burr method, if the newbie will keep at it until he gets his burr along the entire edge on each side in turn, takes all guesswork and "black magic voodoo hoodoo hocus pocus mysticism" out of the equation. No guessing whether or not THIS is what they mean by the blade undercutting the water. No more worry about slurry effect. No more "HELP" posts from a guy who simply refuses to stay on the bevel setter until it does its job. No more jumping up through the grits when all they are doing is polishing a dull edge. It is harsh medicine but it cures the sick bevel and it never needs to be done again. Sort of like getting your appendix out. Don't need to do it this way? Okay, then don't. Not a big deal. But anybody who can't seem to get a bevel set ought to be shown this method. Takes an hour or two at the most, instead of a week of posting and replying and going another few dozen laps on the entire progression and more posting and whining.

And so, I will now close as I so often do, when making controversial views and observations known, with the timeless acronym that carries so much meaning and wisdom: YMMV.

 

[Mer]

Trust me... you are removing as much metal from the edge as you are from the spine.

If you could somehow drill a tiny hole right at the beginning of the edge bevel, and another one right at the back edge of the spine bevel, measure the thickness of the blade precisely at those two points, and hone hone hone until your bevel is set, and then re-measure, you would see that you are indeed removing metal from the edge, as well as from the spine. It is just more obvious at the spine than at the edge. If no steel was removed from the edge, it would never get sharp.

If you expect the bevel angle to remain unchanged, you must have spine and edge wear in proportion to each other. So when you are doing routine honing, you get a tiny bit of spine wear. When you set a bevel on a badly used razor, or hone out a chip, you get a lot of spine wear. If you get none, but a lot of edge wear, you significantly change the bevel angle, making it more obtuse.

Your razor, though. But I suggest not worrying about it. It will all be okay. Just you see. 40 years from now, that razor will still shave, however much spine wear it has. Of course it will likely be 1/4" narrower, but it will still shave.

Thank You Sir!

 

[blackhhawk]

Well I think I'm getting it now. Using my loupe and looking, I have my bevel looking pretty even all the way across. Through using the marker test I have all parts of the edge touching stone. Now I need to do some more laps to refine the work, but I am getting suction/undercut. Will go back at it tonight after work. Had to stop for bed last night. Everything seems to make more sense now. Thanks for the help everyone, whether it was in this thread or another.

 

[jrp316]

Sounds like you're very nearly there. The suction is a very good sign, indicates that the tolerance between blade and stone is very tight and is getting to the point of completion. Passing the marker test is a big milestone too. When you're treetopping hairs easily, you'll be ready to move on through the polishing/refinement stages.