Gold dollar honing experiment feedback

[sd_baker]

Hello everyone,

This is my first razor honing experiment with the Gold Monkey 777 razor. My original motivation was really to understand sharpness in general a bit better, but shaving with a SR has become kind of a side quest. Granted, having done all the research and thinking and honing, I still can't shave with a SR. I'm okay with a shavette, but the SR is large and unwieldy in my hands still.

I'm looking for some feedback on my honing process and results. Here are some before pictures:

There are some chips at the heel and toe. I have not made any geometry changes.

For my initial foray, I've decided to follow the scienceofsharp process pretty strictly:

1. Remove chips with Shapton Glass 500.
   • The bevel is created, but not set.
2. Set bevel with Shapton Pro 1500.
   • Wet thumbnail test across entire edge.
   • Undercut rides onto blade across entire edge.
   • Jointed and reset bevel 4 times to build muscle memory and get through some (presumed because chipping) bad factory edge steel.
3. Refine edge with Shapton Pro 5000
   • Used loupe to check scratch patterns.
   • Finish with some edge trailing strokes according to SOS process.
4. 30 laps on hanging denim strip pasted with Mother's mag to create micro-convexity and remove burr.
5. 30 laps on hanging leather strop sprayed with 0.25 micron diamond to further refine apex.
6. Hand stropped and clean towel stropped to clean up apex.
7. 50 laps on clean leather hanging strop.

The resulting edge can pass HHT to about the same level as a fresh Derby DE razor.

Some tips for others learning honing:

1. Mark the edge with a sharpiel at every possible opportunity.
   • It's really surprisingly easy to miss parts of the heel and toe.
2. Torque and roll pressure through heel to toe on every stroke.
   • I found the heel needs to come off the stone by at least 1.5" at the end of the stroke for the tip to get enough attention.
   • gssixguns has videos demonstrating his "Japanese" stroke.
3. Narrow stones and strops are really easier to use.
   • Limited width forces me to pay attention to torque, pressure and even coverage heel to toe.
   • I found scrubbing strokes that use the entire width of the stone almost always left sharpie marks untouched, but Japanese stroke was more even. It helped to imagine the stone was only half as wide as it was.

Some questions:

1. After a shave, I hand strop and towel strop and let dry for an hour. HHT deteriorates at least 40% (based on my feeling, I guess). The edge seems to be very different to the freshly sharpened edge. I imagine 50 PPS on clean leather will help, but is this change in edge condition normal?
2. I'm not sure if my lack of shaving success is lack of
   1. shaving skill
   2. stropping skill
   3. honing skill
3. ^^ I suppose it's a bad idea to work on all 3 at the same time
   question: is there a more nimble cheap SR that I can play around with? I also have a GD66, which is a similar size.
   

 

[eKretz]

If your edge is deteriorating that fast you probably have a wire edge that is breaking away.

 

[sd_baker]

If your edge is deteriorating that fast you probably have a wire edge that is breaking away.

Would such a wire edge be visible in a Carson 60-120x microbrite or a loupe? I thought about ordering a more powerful usb microscope, but haven't done it just yet.

 

[JPO]

Would such a wire edge be visible in a Carson 60-120x microbrite or a loupe? I thought about ordering a more powerful usb microscope, but haven't done it just yet.

If there is a wire edge you can see it just by reflecting the edge under a light. You don't need any magnification to see it.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

A pretty big jump from 5k to .25um (60,000) grit. You will need to perfect the 5k edge. A razor edge does not get really straight until about 8k. The difference between a 5k and 8k edge is pretty dramatic.

Don’t know what grit metal polish is. I have experimented with metal polish edges, and they are uncomfortable to shave with, they are good edges for tools.

The problem for new honers is stropping, it can take a while to get your stropping to a point where you are consistently improving the edge by stropping. Stropping on paste can exacerbate issues.

You would have a better chance going to .25um from a good 8k edge.

After the 5k, make the best edge you can and look straight down on the edge with the 60x. Any shiny reflections are where the bevels are not meeting, micro chips or a burr. Perfect the 5k edge with light finishing laps.

Yes, a $30 USB will improve your understanding of the honing process. And more importantly allow you to post clear micrographs of your edges and get better advice.

The heel and toe need work with an X stroke. Looks like the razor is pretty straight, for a GD, half the battle, and should shave well once fully honed.

A $15-20 vintage razor with minimum spine wear, from an Antique store or eBay will be a lot easier to hone than a GD.

1. “I'm not sure if my lack of shaving success is lack of
   1. shaving skill
   2. stropping skill
   3. honing skill
2. ^^ I suppose it's a bad idea to work on all 3 at the same time ”

Nope, it is pretty much how we all learned, what’s the worst that can happen, “ruin” a Gold Dollar?

Keep swinging.

 

[Herrenberg]

5000 is pretty high grit to end with, even with pasted strops after.

If you are handy with a Shavette, but a Western straight feels large and awkward in the hand, consider trying a kamisori. I started out with a kamisori and still favor them slightly to this day.

 

[Herrenberg]

Also: a personal bias: carbon steel razors are preferable to stainless steel (controversial). One major thing that's better is that stainless steel is much more persistent about hanging onto a burr (not so controversial).

 

[Chandu]

Also: a personal bias: carbon steel razors are preferable to stainless steel (controversial). One major thing that's better is that stainless steel is much more persistent about hanging onto a burr (not so controversial).

I would absolutely agree if you can fine OLD carbon steel. It had a finer grain back in the day that what is produced today because of differing methods. Pre-WWII steel was well renowned in that regard for wood working edge tools, etc.

That said, there are certainly some fine steels available today for many applications.

 

[JPO]

Another hillbilly "experiment"
I honed a dovo 5/8 ending with a shapton glass 30k. I only used edge trailing strokes on the 30k to draw out a weak edge.
The next step was hanging denim strop loaded with TI white paste. I did 50 laps. The intention was to remove the weak edge and convex the edge a little .
Then I did 50 laps on 0.125 cbn on balsa.
The visible results seems quite good.
Shapton g7 30k.
View attachment 1684692

0.125 cbn on balsa.
View attachment 1684694

The theory is that the role of the coarse abrasive is to create a transition from a triangular bevel to a slightly convex transition behind the apex, without creating a new false/weak edge.
It definitely feels sharp, and looks quite smooth.

Share your honing experiment. What did you learn?

Some also refer to it as the axe method. 10 strokes on one side, then do the other side. 5 strokes and flip... I use the axe method for bevel setting on razors. It does create some burr but then I finish the bevel setting with some regular laps, where I alternate the side on each stroke. On...

www.badgerandblade.com

I have also done the same routine with a 6k stone.
Going slightly higher in grit makes the process a little easier, but the end result is quite similar.

The referenced blog also explains this in greate detail.

 

[TheBeast]

I am a beginner as well, and I use Gold Dollars for experiments too. I bought some vintage 5/8 razors to try smaller ones, 20-30€, so not as cheap as a Gold Dollar. Right now I am testing an edge (GD208) from 1.5k, 5k, 8k Shapton Pros, then 0.25 diamond on balsa. I got to a very pleasant HHT and it stays there after the shave - but I have had the same issue of edges being "ruined" after first shave. What worked for me to keep the edge alive for longer was sticking to the same exact X stroke with the same exact pressure/torque. The moment I tried finishing under running water with ultra light strokes with the stone now in the hand as opposed to on the bench, I ruined the edge. I also paid great attention when stropping. I didn't yet experiment with convexing the bevel on pasted hanging strop.

My biggest lesson learned so far was how much attention to every detail I have to pay, in order to get a edge and a good shave. If I was doing all sorts of stuff on one razor, it ended up shaving poorly. So I kept going, consistently, obsessively about details and it clicked for me from day to day. Now I'm trying my best to keep repeating it and get the muscle memory to set in, so I will hopefully be able to hone one nice edge after another.

 

[TheBeast]

Hello everyone,

This is my first razor honing experiment with the Gold Monkey 777 razor. My original motivation was really to understand sharpness in general a bit better, but shaving with a SR has become kind of a side quest. Granted, having done all the research and thinking and honing, I still can't shave with a SR. I'm okay with a shavette, but the SR is large and unwieldy in my hands still.

I'm looking for some feedback on my honing process and results. Here are some before pictures:

View attachment 1738294
View attachment 1738293

There are some chips at the heel and toe. I have not made any geometry changes.

For my initial foray, I've decided to follow the scienceofsharp process pretty strictly:

1. Remove chips with Shapton Glass 500.
   • The bevel is created, but not set.
2. Set bevel with Shapton Pro 1500.
   • Wet thumbnail test across entire edge.
   • Undercut rides onto blade across entire edge.
   • Jointed and reset bevel 4 times to build muscle memory and get through some (presumed because chipping) bad factory edge steel.
3. Refine edge with Shapton Pro 5000
   • Used loupe to check scratch patterns.
   • Finish with some edge trailing strokes according to SOS process.
4. 30 laps on hanging denim strip pasted with Mother's mag to create micro-convexity and remove burr.
5. 30 laps on hanging leather strop sprayed with 0.25 micron diamond to further refine apex.
6. Hand stropped and clean towel stropped to clean up apex.
7. 50 laps on clean leather hanging strop.

View attachment 1738292
View attachment 1738291
The resulting edge can pass HHT to about the same level as a fresh Derby DE razor.

Some tips for others learning honing:

1. Mark the edge with a sharpiel at every possible opportunity.
   • It's really surprisingly easy to miss parts of the heel and toe.
2. Torque and roll pressure through heel to toe on every stroke.
   • I found the heel needs to come off the stone by at least 1.5" at the end of the stroke for the tip to get enough attention.
   • gssixguns has videos demonstrating his "Japanese" stroke.
3. Narrow stones and strops are really easier to use.
   • Limited width forces me to pay attention to torque, pressure and even coverage heel to toe.
   • I found scrubbing strokes that use the entire width of the stone almost always left sharpie marks untouched, but Japanese stroke was more even. It helped to imagine the stone was only half as wide as it was.

Some questions:

1. After a shave, I hand strop and towel strop and let dry for an hour. HHT deteriorates at least 40% (based on my feeling, I guess). The edge seems to be very different to the freshly sharpened edge. I imagine 50 PPS on clean leather will help, but is this change in edge condition normal?
2. I'm not sure if my lack of shaving success is lack of
   1. shaving skill
   2. stropping skill
   3. honing skill
3. ^^ I suppose it's a bad idea to work on all 3 at the same time
   question: is there a more nimble cheap SR that I can play around with? I also have a GD66, which is a similar size.

To give some more feedback I am going to share what I think helps me get better, but please don't take it as instructions or something more than just my personal experience.

I am learning to shave, hone and strop at the same time so it's kind of tricky and takes a long tíme to figure out what is going on. But I Can tell that all three factors weigh in for my shaving experience. If the edge isn't honed properly to suit my face, it doesn't cut hair effortlesly, tugs, pulls, skips.

If my shaving stroke is not perfect, I cut myself, give myself razor burn,...- with my best edge I Can feel a difference in a good shaving stroke and a Bad one - just have to figure out exactly how to perform only perfect strokes each time. Good stroke - hair removed, edge not felt digging into my skin or scraping it - just a gentle swipe that picks up lather and takes the hair with it. Bad stroke - feels something like scratching agressively with a fingernail. Hair stays behing or is not cut very close.

During stropping it helped me to focus on the "sing" and "tone" the razor makes during each stroke. This "tone" differs if I change Pressure/ torque on the razor or slack on the strop.

As I have noticed (and probably many more), I get better results in honing, stroping and shaving by being as gentle as possible and as consistent with everything I do AS possible.

I like science of sharp a lot. But I unfortunately cannot replicate what the Author does there if I don't have access to a SEM microscope - so I can't compare shots. And I sure as hell can't replicate how much Pressure/torque/slack in the strop the Author uses.

And a bonus thought - you said the heel needs to leave the Stone and when you use a straight (not rolling) stroke, the sharpie on heel and toe is not removed. I believe that Has to do with the blade having a smile. I kept running the heel off the Stone to hit the toe, but my Pressure wasnt focused on the toe, I ended Up digging into to corner/edge of the hone. So after realizing how smoothly the Pressure needs to roll from heel to toe, I noticed I don't have to run the heel off the Stone at All, just focusing the weight (Pressure, very subtle) is enough. With gold dollars often find the need to end the stroke with a pronounced lifting of the heel off the Stone. Because the smile on them isnt a radius, the tip of the heel is much more closer to the spine then I would expect. I did try breadknifing one GD66 and it took forever to get to the toe tip.

 

[JPO]

I like science of sharp a lot. But I unfortunately cannot replicate what the Author does there if I don't have access to a SEM microscope - so I can't compare shots. And I sure as hell can't replicate how much Pressure/torque/slack in the strop the Author uses.

If you follow the steps in the referenced blog you don't need anything more then a 10 -15x loupe.
Basically you create a visible burr with edge trailing strokes, strop on denim loaded with your paste of choice to create some apex convexity. This sets the edge up for the diamonds strop on leather without creating a new burr. If you skip the denim/fabric step you will just create a new burr, even if you only did edge leading strokes.
All this is visible without any magnification. You just need to understand the basic steps, and know what to look for.

I have had good results doing this from 6k. If you start from 8k you just need to adjust your routine.

The process creates a little convexity, so, a GD razor might end up with a too obtuse bevel angle in my opinion. They are already not usable for me with the factory bevel angle.
Sure, there are better edges then this type of edge. However, they come quite close to edges that are "better "

 

[JPO]

I just honed a razor to show how foolproof this method can be.
I killed the edge on this dovo. Then I did all the things you should not do if you don't want to mess up your edge.

I did allot of half strokes on a shapton 8k (not recommended). Then I ended with quite a few edge trailing strokes.
Now I had a visible drawn out edge/burr. I didn't use any magnification. You can clearly see this.
Then I stropped on denim loaded with TI white paste (metal polish work as well)
I did not count strokes. I stropped until I had no visible burr left.
Then I stropped on hard backed leather loaded with 0.125 micron cbn.

I have shaved off these types of edges enough times to be quite confident that this will be a good edge. They look consistently the same every time.
The burr was actually easier to see without magnification, because it usually reflects light differently. This is harder to see under magnification.

Final edge after cbn on leather.

This only took a few minutes. However, it does require some trial and error to dial in the process.
The trick is not to do too much work on the denim. You also need to have a small amount of paste on the denim. It is almost not visible on my strop.

 

[TheBeast]

You just need to understand the basic steps, and know what to look for.

And thats the problem, I might think I understand the steps and think I know what to look for, but I don't. Thats why it took me like 10 tries to set a decent bevel and 20 to remove All previous scratches.

I will give this a shot for sure, but I don't think I will be able to tell with certainty that I have a burr, that it is removed, and that I have a convex bevel. If I've never Seen it before and I dont have anyone to physically show me, I always struggle to learn something.

 

[JPO]

And thats the problem, I might think I understand the steps and think I know what to look for, but I don't. Thats why it took me like 10 tries to set a decent bevel and 20 to remove All previous scratches.

I will give this a shot for sure, but I don't think I will be able to tell with certainty that I have a burr, that it is removed, and that I have a convex bevel. If I've never Seen it before and I dont have anyone to physically show me, I always struggle to learn something.

You just rotate the edge under a bright light. Sunlight or a some other light from a elevated location works well.
This is not the type of burr you can feel with your fingers.
It is more like a extended edge that will lean a little to one side, just enough to catch the light differently.

 

[sd_baker]

A pretty big jump from 5k to .25um (60,000) grit. You will need to perfect the 5k edge. A razor edge does not get really straight until about 8k. The difference between a 5k and 8k edge is pretty dramatic.

Yes, this progression is purposefully and intentional. The article is called "simple-straight-razor-honing", and there is a 4 part series called "pasted strop".

Instead of the traditional triangular apex created through a series of finer and finer grit stones,a micro-convexed apex is created only in the last 3 micron of the apex. The convexity is not visible even in optical microscopes. It's shown in the article I mentioned using SEM.

The idea took me some days to fully process.

The 5k stone is to refine the edge to an extent and create a foil edge/burr. This is to setup the following stropping steps.

Don’t know what grit metal polish is. I have experimented with metal polish edges, and they are uncomfortable to shave with, they are good edges for tools.

The metal polish particle size ranges from sub micron to 10s of micron. This is covered in "the-pasted-strop-part-4" article. However the grit rating dos not work the same as they do in stones. The fabric allows the bigger particles to sink in. The effective grit is much finer. The cumulative effect of polish and denim is magic sauce for micro-convexity.

The sequencing of stone-denim-leather is intentional and designed to achieve a result while being tolerant of a variety of factors. The entire "pasted strop" series goes into depth about various aspects of the sequence.

The problem for new honers is stropping, it can take a while to get your stropping to a point where you are consistently improving the edge by stropping. Stropping on paste can exacerbate issues.

Yes, I've already nicked my strop some, but luckily I bought the hardware to make my own strop, so I'm not overly sad about it.

You would have a better chance going to .25um from a good 8k edge.

I have some lapping films on order to try. Fine stones get pretty expensive, they aren't generally useful to me outside of razors.

Keep swinging.

Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[sd_baker]

I just honed a razor to show how foolproof this method can be.

Yes! That's why this is the first approach I decided to try. He specifically designed it to be tolerant of many variables

Then I stropped on hard backed leather loaded with 0.125 micron cbn.

The process you posted is accurate as far as I understand except for the above.

1. Because the micro-convexity is created with the denim and metal polish strop, the next strop needs to have a fair amount of give to reach the apex, which by now has a higher angle. He has done other analysis to show leather is a good carrier for diamond sprays, so he uses a hanging leather strop.
2. He found that sub 0.25 micron abrasives did not increase the keenness of the edge, but were effective mostly in polishing, so he's using 0.25 micron.

The trick is not to do too much work on the denim. You also need to have a small amount of paste on the denim.

How much work are you doing on denim? My denim has white coverage which has turned gray after 4 uses of 30 laps each. Can you post a picture of how much paste you're applying to denim?

 

[JPO]

How much work are you doing on denim? My denim has white coverage which has turned gray after 4 uses of 30 laps each. Can you post a picture of how much paste you're applying to denim?

I think you are using too much abrasive on the strop. It should be embedded into the fabric.
My strop count is not relevant to you, because the condition of the edge, the length of the stroke, pressure etc. all factor in.
Forget about counting strokes.
You strop until you can see the drawn out edge go away. The edge will reflect light differently.

A full progression with a maxed out 8k, followed by only 5 to 10 strokes on denim and leather loaded with diamonds will probably give you a better edge. However, then all the work leading up to this needs to be good.

This first approach takes away most of the guesswork. However, the final edge wil most likely have a little extra convexity. The bevel angle on a GD does not have much room for that.
If your beard in not though it might not be a problem.

 

[sd_baker]

I think you are using too much abrasive on the strop. It should be embedded into the fabric.
My strop count is not relevant to you, because the condition of the edge, the length of the stroke, pressure etc. all factor in.
Forget about counting strokes.
You strop until you can see the drawn out edge go away. The edge will reflect light differently.

A full progression with a maxed out 8k, followed by only 5 to 10 strokes on denim and leather loaded with diamonds will probably give you a better edge. However, then all the work leading up to this needs to be good.

Thanks a lot for this feedback. It's exactly what I'm looking for - someone who knows razor edges well and the SOS process to check I'm on the right track.

I will try to max out the edge on my king 6k use less metal polish and less strokes on the strops.

 

[sd_baker]

I did allot of half strokes on a shapton 8k (not recommended).

I assume this means half strokes are not recommended after the bevel has been set? Is there a reason? It would seem to be the fastest way to erase the course scratches.