I can't help but think he got a slightly duff one. It's a natural product after all.
Apache Strata
- Thread starter Bayamontate
- Start date
- Status
Going to the stone off 8k it refines well, but checking it every 5 laps as you suggest, you watch the edge thin and thin and thin, and you have to stop just as the edge thins enough it is the Apache edge, not a thinned version of the prior hones edge (see the apache on oil image several pages back, where the edge thickness is still beyond where a finished edge would be; and the edge still has the straight line profile of the 8k that preceded it, in that case I stopped slightly too early.) There will immediately be some "character" to the edge, the way you see on every image I've taken but the 8k; The jnat and thuri have the most refined character, and an almost synthetic toothiness (especially the Jnat); and stones like the vosgiennes and swaty have much more ragged character (more edge damage being expressed). Beyond this point the edge no longer becomes any keener, it actually starts to degrade as the "character" begins to populate more and more of the edge, without the edge radius reducing in any appreciable way.
That's when you're sharpening on it. When you're actually using it to step down (as I did with the Jnat edge tonight); you're taking an edge that is already thinner than it would be coming off this stone; so you're basically blasting the edge with a shotgun loaded with edge character; as the edge is much more susceptible to it, being more fragile than it otherwise would ever be on the hone. This isn't necessarily a flaw in a hone. It's present to some degree in all hones; but the level I was seeing it on this stone is out of line with what you'd expect given the positive results others are getting from these. The stone works and can definitely give a good shave, but it requires some degree of trial and error, and some level of compromise that doesn't align with Nelson, Bill and Keith's results; that the stone is almost mindless to use and gives a shave of nearly coticule-level comfort. Those are not distinctions that I think could easily be drawn from my stone. It's not terribly difficult, and the shave was rather comfortable; but there's a big gap between Thuri mindless ease and this stone. A big gap between Jnat sharp and this stone. And a Big gap between Coticule comfort and this stone. All those together do make suspect that there just might be something up with mine; so I'm pretty eager to get to try another one.
Im sure the next one will be much better. The reason for the stone is an easy keen and smooth edge. And the emphasis is EASY, as its not an edge that I never got before. I would say a full nagura 45 minute hone on a few of my jnats can surpass what I get on this, but then again I have only tried this stone so many times. As Keith said almost coti smooth and the edge is kind on the facial skin. The HHT is ridiculous though! 10 finish laps water only to HHT5 root in or out? Thats incredible. And smooth effortless cutting and in 6 minutes? Im sure the next one will pan out nicely for you. And my comments about the scope were IMO only. Scope away if thats your thing.
Lasy night, Gold dollar, dulled on glass. Lapping film: 12 micron >5>3>1 > apache. After 12 laps on the apache I started to feel a little resistance to the honing stroke so I stopped. Stropped and popping hairs all along the edge. Shave this am very nice. Felt a little more crisp than the coti>apache edges but not nearly as crisp as a film edge
Yesterday, I had the opportunity to hone two straight razors two Red Imps; 5/8 & 6/8using the same progression on both blades:
Chosera 1k > Norton 4k > Norton 8k > ...and then used a different finisher on each: an Escher Dk Blue (6/8 Imp) & the Apache Strata (5/8 Imp).
On both finishers, I used a very light slurry then diluted to just water with a comparable amount of laps (30/30) on each.
I'm happy to report that I got delightfully smooth and comfortable shave from both razors as I alternated during a 3-pass shave with 2-day growth. Still more razor testing to do, but I was encouraged after this initial test-run.
Chosera 1k > Norton 4k > Norton 8k > ...and then used a different finisher on each: an Escher Dk Blue (6/8 Imp) & the Apache Strata (5/8 Imp).
On both finishers, I used a very light slurry then diluted to just water with a comparable amount of laps (30/30) on each.
I'm happy to report that I got delightfully smooth and comfortable shave from both razors as I alternated during a 3-pass shave with 2-day growth. Still more razor testing to do, but I was encouraged after this initial test-run.
Last edited:
Kev, did you raise the slurry with a DMT? I've found it all but impossible to slurry with the rubbing stone. I slurried with a pretty hard Jnat Tomo this morning and the slurry was close to 100% tomo slurry. I'm actually thinking about just trying it with a Thuri rubbing stone, but I may try a DMT too, I've just put it off as I want to avoid having to remove the 220grit scratches that would leave on it.
I've found the Atomas or DMTs work great for slurrying on my experimental natural stone, but need to use a pretty fine diamond to keep from getting large scratches. Worn 1200 Atoma is pretty good. Mine won't do a whole lot of slurrying with a Tomo style stone either, unless the finish on both is pretty rough.
Yeah, I've not had the heart to drop the $100+ an Atoma costs yet, and I'm not willing to risk my finer DMT's as they are warned against that sort of use. I may pick up a 1200grit credit card, but then I've got to check the slurry in case it's losing diamonds and affecting the results. I may just break down and spend the 10 minutes or so I figure it'll take to raise enough slurry to work with using apache on apache. I've used that finger stone maybe a hundred times so far, and the saw marks are barely faded at all... the thing is freakishly hard.
Yeah I definitely wouldn't recommend using a diamond plate for slurrying purposes unless it's well broken in. Maybe take a chunk of steel and rub the crap out of the new plate/card before attempting to use it to raise a slurry. Or maybe lap/slurry a few hard Arks to remove any loose diamond pieces.
I would not say the Apache is mindlessly easy, not at all.
It's stipid hard and extremely touch sensitive. Well, mine is anyway.
I wouldnt say its hard to use either though.
The edges this far have been very cmfortable, not like a coti edge in feel exactly, but like a Coti edge in the sense that the edge was not tedious.
It's stipid hard and extremely touch sensitive. Well, mine is anyway.
I wouldnt say its hard to use either though.
The edges this far have been very cmfortable, not like a coti edge in feel exactly, but like a Coti edge in the sense that the edge was not tedious.
I did use the DMT for a light slurry. I too was think of using a Thuri stone, but I couldn't find the little bugger, so went with the big DMT325. The apache yielded a light slurry fairly quickly with the DMT.
I have a 600 and 1200 card size. Never had an issue with losing diamonds.
You can use a tomo nagura. I tried 2 already with great results. A Nakayama kiita and a nakayama iromono. I tested the stone with my ozuku which is the hardest tomo I have and it didnt scratch it. That was expected, needless to say I stopped testing right there for hardness. I found both tomo and stone produced a nice polish. I will try a shave off of it just to see. I stopped working the slurry when I was getting some stiction. Doesnt take long.
I don't even have my rock yet and I am wondering what les lat slurry on it would produce. Has anyone tried it yet ?
Honestly My les lat didn't come to mind, but it's probably the closest stone I've got to this one with regards to how hard it is to raise a slurry. It's certainly easier than this stone, but it was the last stone that I got frustrated with trying to do so. Would be interesting to try.
Just tried, slurrying this stone with a les lat is almost as hard as using the rubbing stone. I couldn't even raise enough slurry to tell you for sure which stone was giving it up.
Just tried, slurrying this stone with a les lat is almost as hard as using the rubbing stone. I couldn't even raise enough slurry to tell you for sure which stone was giving it up.
Last edited:
If nobody takes it on before I get mine I will be glad to try it and report back.
I have a ruby stone. 3k sintered that is harder than the apache. I just ran it over the stone and managed a very small slurry. There was no red in it under the loupe so its all apache. The amount of slurry is very small though and I estimate 200 laps to raise enough slurry to work with. The corner of the ruby is rounded to not scratch the stone and I used relatively light pressure. Someone said spydercos are the same as the ruby. I dont know though as I never used one.
Another one--imperial "improved eagle razor", 6/8. Dilucot on coticule the apache. This ones a little warped to it took some more work to hit the whole edge on the apache, but got it to hht4 everywhere. Shave in the am will tell...
I'm suddenly finding honing more enjoyable than I have in a while (which is what I had hoped for). Although I like the edges I was getting from my jnat with nagura progression, the process was a pain (my opinion, I know others feel differently). I always liked the simplicity of coticule honing, but I never got good edges until recently. Figuring out the coticule and having the apache to play with and to bump up the sharpness of the coticule edges has made it more fun again. Unfortunately it has had me looking at rocks on TSS and Ardennes, so my wallet is cringing in anticipation...must resist pretty yellow rocks!
I'm suddenly finding honing more enjoyable than I have in a while (which is what I had hoped for). Although I like the edges I was getting from my jnat with nagura progression, the process was a pain (my opinion, I know others feel differently). I always liked the simplicity of coticule honing, but I never got good edges until recently. Figuring out the coticule and having the apache to play with and to bump up the sharpness of the coticule edges has made it more fun again. Unfortunately it has had me looking at rocks on TSS and Ardennes, so my wallet is cringing in anticipation...must resist pretty yellow rocks!
I just got done lapping mine, took an hour and a half using a DMT 220 for the first grid than a well worn D8C for the second. That rock is seriously hard! Needs some surface prep but I ran out of patience for the evening. Took a Double Duck Goldedge that was finished on a coticule (not one of my better Coticule efforts) and did 20 x-strokes just for fun. After stropping I had a solid HHT4+ root in or out. I will shave tomorrow (been up since 11am Thursday so not a good time to shave with a straight). Will report back on the shave.
- Status
Similar threads
