Curious what you guys are recommending for new guys and stones.

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Paste has been used for centuries to strop, finish and maintain razors, yes substrate makes a lot of difference as does technique and number of laps. Metal polish is aggressive and of unknow grit size and type.

Yes, aggressive paste and technique will thin an edge and while it can shave well, will micro chip easily.

Most folks start with paste for keenness and comfort and end up with natural stones to finish. Arks are all about stone face surface prep, though you may need an edge finished to a higher level than 5k, usually a good 8k edge.

Cnats are a crap shoot.

 

[Christian1212]

I agree paste can be a good cheap option. However I wouldn't recomend something like mothers for a progression. If they were trying to straight razor shave for as cheap as possible then I'd suggest getting their razor honed by someone and then just maintaining with a good edge. I feel like most budgets would have some better paste for razors obtainable.

I think after reading everything I personally will be recommending the following.

1. Sticking with any name brand stone you have if it is decent. With paste as an option to increase final finish if that brand can't handle it.

2. Shapton rockstar combo of 2 or 3 stones. Possibly choseras if they have a higher budget.

3. If on a budget but really wanting to get into it, a 5k and 10k combo. Possibly with paste after.

If the person doesn't have atleast 100 bucks or so to invest though I'm probably suggesting the paste to maintain an edge. Then saving up and getting recomendation 2 when possible. I know naturals can fill in some of these gaps, but probably not recommending those until they try out some edges from those stones.

 

[lightfoot]

For newcomers I think the Shapton Kuromaku 5K and the Naniwa 10k Gouken (super stone basically) would be a great way to get your feet wet.

 

[albsat]

This is a great thread.

What is the highest grit possible to set a bevel?

 

[Wid]

This is a great thread.

What is the highest grit possible to set a bevel?

That all depends on the condition of the bevel. I’ve used a 3K on one that didn’t need any correction.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Google (12k Chip Removal and Bevel Setting).

80 circles and 206 half laps, removed a small chip, from start to shave with a Naniwa 12k. Recommended, nope. But can be done, 3-6k yea, pretty much, cake.

Modern good synthetics are way more aggressive than we give them credit for. I suspect a good Jnat, Coticule or Washita could pretty much do something similar.

 

[Tomo]

If you’re starting out I’d go with a 3M lapping film progression and a 12x3x1” acrylic block. 30, 12, 9, 5, 3, 1 micron, aluminum oxide, plain backed without adhesive. Get a couple spare sheets of 30 and 1 micron. Straight away you have a very effective progression and you don’t need a lapping plate. Shave with this for a while and see if it’s for you.

From here you get a new production Surgical Black or Translucent Ark from Dan’s minimum 6x2”. You are now in the top 1% of best finishers on the planet. The new stone will be quite flat and an Atoma 400 lapping plate is optional. The stone should be run in with a kitchen knife before use on razors. The edges should be chamfered. This can be done with WD sandpaper. At this stage you’re potentially set for life. Vintage stones are good but be aware that they will require more time and equipment to get set up. Especially if they turn out to be dished.

Once you start collecting razors and run out of lapping film you add the Shapton Glass 1k, 3k, 8k combo pack with stone holder. If you don’t have one yet, you’ll need an Atoma lapping plate. Throw out the acrylic block or glue a 1/4” thick piece of balsa to it and build a diamond pasted, balsa strop for the sharpest possible edge.

Now you’re ready to start collecting razors and rock hunting. You can spend thousands of dollars to discover for yourself that nothing beats an Arkansas stone and a vintage, Sheffield razor.

 

[Seelector]

You can spend thousands of dollars to discover for yourself that nothing beats an Arkansas stone and a vintage, Sheffield razor

I’m following your advice to a tee! Currently in the spending thousands of dollars phase, glad I’m on the right track

 

[Eshebert]

I’m following your advice to a tee! Currently in the spending thousands of dollars phase, glad I’m on the right track

Your not alone on that island. I have pile of Arks and Sheffield's but I am not ready for monogamy.

 

[RobertScalchi]

I recommend the alternative lifestyle SoS simple method - SP1.5k, SP5k, mother's on denim, 0.25 micron on leather (I prefer 0.1 micron on balsa). You'd have to read the article and understand the goals of each step, but it's extremely straight forward and consistent. Once you do it once, you only need a bare leather strop and 0.1 balsa to keep your edge going forever.

I do the Norton 1k, 4k, 8k, Naniwa 12k, ILR, or Mizuki Asagi JNAT progression, then do .50, .25, Mothers on denim, then .01 to finish on Latigo leather, and maintain off the last 3. Good edges but still lackluster to me. Most of my razors pop hairs and tree top. Some perform better than others depending on the steel, spine wear and bevel angle. The ones with less spine wear perform sharper I attribute to more proper bevel angle. I don't have a USB microscope but have an old radio shack x100 pocket scope but I usually determine my edges by feel and naked eye edge light reflection/sight. Still somewhat but not totally satisfied with the balsa progressions. I get a little irritation depending on the blade and lather hydration but my true test is ATG upper lip.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“I do the Norton 1k, 4k, 8k, Naniwa 12k, ILR, or Mizuki Asagi JNAT progression, then do .50, .25, Mothers on denim, then .01 to finish on Latigo leather, and maintain off the last 3.”

“I get a little irritation depending on the blade and lather hydration but my true test is ATG upper lip.”

Whoa, lots of finishers and aggressive paste and the grit size of Mothers is unknown, it is aggressive. Few razors can handle that much thinning on paste. Got to the Jnat after the 8 or 12k, you don’t need both and skip the ILR.

You should be getting a quality shaving edge from your Jnat, if not look into other nagura and technique.

Try just a few laps on .50um, on the Jnat edge. I prefer CBN over Diamonds on a paper hanging strop, Pellon, cotton strapping or denim. Balsa has its own grit of unknow size.

The old Radio Shack scopes are battery eaters, try a Carson 60-100x Micro Brite $15 for a better handheld scope.

 

[RobertScalchi]

That all depends on the condition of the bevel. I’ve used a 3K on one that didn’t need any correction.

Same. Any bevels/spines that are in somewhat ok geometrical condition but don't fair well on the paper test, I usually only use my Norton 1k for bevel/spine correction since it's so aggressive. I typically start my bevels on 4k until I'm satisfied with bevel reveal and performance on heel to toe on paper test.

 

[RobertScalchi]

“I do the Norton 1k, 4k, 8k, Naniwa 12k, ILR, or Mizuki Asagi JNAT progression, then do .50, .25, Mothers on denim, then .01 to finish on Latigo leather, and maintain off the last 3.”

“I get a little irritation depending on the blade and lather hydration but my true test is ATG upper lip.”

Whoa, lots of finishers and aggressive paste and the grit size of Mothers is unknown, it is aggressive. Few razors can handle that much thinning on paste. Got to the Jnat after the 8 or 12k, you don’t need both and skip the ILR.

You should be getting a quality shaving edge from your Jnat, if not look into other nagura and technique.

Try just a few laps on .50um, on the Jnat edge. I prefer CBN over Diamonds on a paper hanging strop, Pellon, cotton strapping or denim. Balsa has its own grit of unknow size.

The old Radio Shack scopes are battery eaters, try a Carson 60-100x Micro Brite $15 for a better handheld scope.

What I meant to say was I alternate what comes after the 8k or 12k. Lately I've been using the JNAT thereafter. Haven't really used the ILR lately. I have one Tomo Nagura. I really don't understand much about them because there is so many of them despite attempting to grasp it off of one of Keith Johnson's videos. I typically either raise a self slurry on the JNAT from leveling it with the Atoma or will use the Tomo Nagura I have, them finish it with running water. Then proceed to 20 laps or by feel of resistance and cut as well as smoothness of stroke on .50 on balsa. I x push stroke after 10 laps on all hanging/inverted balsa. All my balsa are leveled with 400grit, then finished with 1000 grit sandpaper over my atoma before being impregnated with paste and rubbed and distributed evenly with lighter fluid. Then I do about 25 to 40 laps on .25 balsa, then 10 to 20 laps on the denim and mothers, then 20 to 40 laps on the .01. I understand the mother's has undetermined grit size and can be coarser than .25. Sometimes I interchange the two meaning. Mother's and denim before .25. Lap count is arbitrary to me. I go by textile feel, sound, and stroke resistance, but mainly performance on tree topping hairs. Ive tried members suggested counts like 60/40/20 or 20/40/60 or whatever it was and found it not making anykind of significant difference. Sometimes I skip and omit the mother's and denim all together. I just use it as a crutch/cheat to keen up an edge that isn't tree topping off a JNAT or .50.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I don't see much point in stropping on Mother's if you've already got 0.5, 0.25, and 0.1 diamond pastes. If using those in progression isn't getting you there, you need to revisit your earlier work on the stones.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“Ive tried members suggested counts like 60/40/20 or 20/40/60 or whatever it was and found it not making anykind of significant difference. Sometimes I skip and omit the mother's and denim all together. I just use it as a crutch/cheat to keen up an edge that isn't tree topping off a JNAT or .50.”

I get that folks use balsa pasted strops to make a shaving edge, and compensate for honing. But the downside is a harsh edge, because razor steel cannot support thinning so much and hold an edge.

And Mothers just adds a whole bunch of needless variables and likely going backwards in grit from the paste you are using.

You should be able to make a pristine shaving edge from a Jnat, especially from an 8 or 12k edge. Your Jnat should make a shaving edge with just Diamond slurry, nagura can add keenness or smoothness.

By using so much paste, you are wiping out any benefit from the Jnat edge.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

By using so much paste, you are wiping out any benefit from the Jnat edge.

I agree. I think the whole idea behind the balsa progressions was to take the place of an exotic finisher, not to add to it. It's an easy, repeatable way to get a very sharp, keen edge. Handled correctly, it can also make for a reasonably comfortable edge--although this is more challenging-- but probably not as comfortable as a good natural finisher (definitely not, in my opinion, but everybody's perception is different).

A Naniwa 12k should give you a decent shaving edge. I'd work towards getting consistent shaves off the 12k, and then experiment with adding in pasted stropping on top of that, taking a less-is-more approach. I'd also experiment with seeing if you can improve a good 12K edge with your Jnat.

I just use it as a crutch/cheat to keen up an edge that isn't tree topping off a JNAT or .50.

Are your edges treetopping off the 12k? They should be.