Why Hone Edge Leading?

[rbscebu]

I hope I can bother you one more time. I was trying to filter through some of the info...regarding the diamond paste, do you progress from .25, then to 0.1? Or do you jump directly to 0.1 from your stones and/or CROx?

Once you have finished honing on a solid flat honing medium and your SR is shaving comfortably, then and only then do you progress to diamond pasted balsa strops. The pasted balsa does not make a poor edge better, it only refines an already good shave-ready edge.

You can go from a solid whetstone medium to CROx also on a solid flat substrate but you will be wasting your time. There is no need for CROx if using diamond pasted balsa strops.

You will need at least three diamond pasted balsa strops; 0.5μm, 0.25μm and 0.1μm. I also have a fourth, a second 0.1μm balsa strop, that I use for edge maintenance after each shave. This fourth is not really needed but I like it that way.

Initially, after each shave, put the blade through a full pasted balsa strop progression (0.5, 0.25, 0.1 and 0.1 hanging). Once you find that there is no further edge improvement, you can drop back to 0.1μm hanging balsa stropping only after each shave.

 

[nvpliers]

Once you have finished honing on a solid flat honing medium and your SR is shaving comfortably, then and only then do you progress to diamond pasted balsa strops. The pasted balsa does not make a poor edge better, it only refines an already good shave-ready edge.

You can go from a solid whetstone medium to CROx also on a solid flat substrate but you will be wasting your time. There is no need for CROx if using diamond pasted balsa strops.

You will need at least three diamond pasted balsa strops; 0.5μm, 0.25μm and 0.1μm. I also have a fourth, a second 0.1μm balsa strop, that I use for edge maintenance after each shave. This fourth is not really needed but I like it that way.

Initially, after each shave, put the blade through a full pasted balsa strop progression (0.5, 0.25, 0.1 and 0.1 hanging). Once you find that there is no further edge improvement, you can drop back to 0.1μm hanging balsa stropping only after each shave.

Got it. Very helpful. Thanks!

 

[rbscebu]

Got it. Very helpful. Thanks!

If you often travel, you should also consider a mini travel 0.1μm pasted balsa strop.

My Travel Diamond Pasted Balsa Strop

I have been putting together a "mini" diamond pasted balsa strop to take with me when traveling. My normal balsa strops are about 300mm x 75mm (12" x 3"). At that size it is rather large to carry with me when traveling. I wanted one that would fit into my SR dop bag yet still be usable for...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[nvpliers]

Thanks!

 

[cotedupy]

Shapton rates each stone not just by grit, but by grit distribution, sharpening sensation/feedback and a few other factors. The 16k have a larger spread in particle size then say the 10K. The 16k is not recommended for razors by shapton probably for this reason. The 10k is also higher priced then the 16k. I think this also apply to the 3k and the 4k. The 3k is more expensive then the 4k. The 3k has a higher rating on what they call sharpening sensation then the 4k. Maybe there is more polishing agents in the 3k. I have the 3k HR, but i do not have the 4k to compare.
And then you have the GS7 stones. They are a little different again. My 0.85 micron GS7, which is the closest to the 0.92 micron 16k does does not give these detrimental effects on the edge, as have been shown with the 16k.
I am not sure, but i suspect that the GS7 stones do have a more narrow grit distribution then the larger stone. The grit rating is quite close to the bigger stones. I have no idea how they rate their stones. Is it based on grit particle size, or is it the width of the scratches they leave? I would assume it an average of one or the other. Then it makes sense to me that the GS7 stone in fact might be more suited for razors, especially for the finest stones.

The characteristics i look for in a stone for knife sharpening does not align with my preference for razor honing.
If someone says they are not a fan of the glass stone, what do they mean. Which stone did they try, on which steel?
You have the HR the HC and the regular, in addition you have the GS7.
For my kitchen knifes i prefer the Naniwa pro 2k over my GS 3k HR. That might change if i get different knifes.

I didn't know this about the 10k vs 16k, interesting. And your guess that the same may apply to 3&4k might make sense - the 4k is very highly thought of on KKF, but you barely see the 3k mentioned at all.

I have used the whole range of regular SGs, and can't say I noticed it particularly, but next time I see the guy I know who has the lot I'll give them another spin with this in mind.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Why is Shapton so mysterious about other issues, like why are there “Japanese” Shapton of the same grits and Shapton for export, what is the difference?

I read this claim about the 16k, that Shapton does not recommend them for razors and see it on “Shapton” grit charts, (none of the charts are from Shapton, but from Shapton dealers) but nothing on the Shapton site.

The Shapton 7 stone holder is pretty cool, they should make one full size.

 

[nvpliers]

To update...First thank you all for your help and advice. I finished out the blades, using Naniwa SS 12k, then CROx and naked leather. All is well. Got a nice shave today. I often learn the hard way...but at least I learn. I may play with some of the diamond pastes and stuff recommended by Rbscebu in the future. Thanks again Rbscebu and the rest!!

 

[rbscebu]

To update...First thank you all for your help and advice. I finished out the blades, using Naniwa SS 12k, then CROx and naked leather. All is well. Got a nice shave today. I often learn the hard way...but at least I learn. I may play with some of the diamond pastes and stuff recommended by Rbscebu in the future. Thanks again Rbscebu and the rest!!

If/when going to diamond pasted balsa, remember that any blade that has been stropped with paste on a hanging or loom leather/cloth strop will have a convex bevel. With a convex bevel, the blade's edge will not properly contact the pasted balsa. You will first have to reset the bevel.

 

[JPO]

If/when going to diamond pasted balsa, remember that any blade that has been stropped with paste on a hanging or loom leather/cloth strop will have a convex bevel. With a convex bevel, the blade's edge will not properly contact the pasted balsa. You will first have to reset the bevel.

Resetting the bevel might mean something different to different people. In this case it might be enough to drop down to an 8k, or even just doing some work on a 12k, depending on the condition of your bevel. Dropping down to e.g. a 1k to "reset" the bevel in this case is like replacing your car engine when all you needed was an oil change.

 

[rbscebu]

Resetting the bevel might mean something different to different people. In this case it might be enough to drop down to an 8k, or even just doing some work on a 12k, depending on the condition of your bevel. Dropping down to e.g. a 1k to "reset" the bevel in this case is like replacing your car engine when all you needed was an oil change.

True. By saying resetting the bevel, I mean honing the convexity out of the bevel so that the two bevel surfaces are flat and meet at the edge apex.

 

[nvpliers]

Ok Thank you. Yes, that all makes sense.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“If/when going to diamond pasted balsa, remember that any blade that has been stropped with paste on a hanging or loom leather/cloth strop will have a convex bevel. With a convex bevel, the blade's edge will not properly contact the pasted balsa. You will first have to reset the bevel.”

Really?

How much do your edges convex, what does it take to flatten your convexed bevels? Your balsa will not compress enough to compensate for a micro convexing of a hanging pasted strop?

A single piece of wet copy paper under film will compress enough to polish about a third of a bevel, (convexing).

It has been years, but my experiments with balsa showed that pasted balsa convexed a bevel, probably only microns but, nothing that caused an issue and micro convexity is removed in the first few laps on most finishers.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

“If/when going to diamond pasted balsa, remember that any blade that has been stropped with paste on a hanging or loom leather/cloth strop will have a convex bevel. With a convex bevel, the blade's edge will not properly contact the pasted balsa. You will first have to reset the bevel.”

Really?

How much do your edges convex, what does it take to flatten your convexed bevels? Your balsa will not compress enough to compensate for a micro convexing of a hanging pasted strop?

A single piece of wet copy paper under film will compress enough to polish about a third of a bevel, (convexing).

It has been years, but my experiments with balsa showed that pasted balsa convexed a bevel, probably only microns but, nothing that caused an issue and micro convexity is removed in the first few laps on most finishers.

That's been my experience too. Maybe a pasted hanging strop will create *more* convexity but I believe a balsa strop does convex the apex slightly (and I think that's a good thing because it creates a narrower, keener apex). As a matter of fact for the blades that are going to the balsa treatment, I very much prefer to finish with a few laps on film over paper because it seems to jumpstart the process. I find I spend about 2/3 to half the time on the .5 and .25 strops to get the edge where I want it as compared to coming off of film without paper underneath.

 

[Slash McCoy]

“If/when going to diamond pasted balsa, remember that any blade that has been stropped with paste on a hanging or loom leather/cloth strop will have a convex bevel. With a convex bevel, the blade's edge will not properly contact the pasted balsa. You will first have to reset the bevel.”

Really?

How much do your edges convex, what does it take to flatten your convexed bevels? Your balsa will not compress enough to compensate for a micro convexing of a hanging pasted strop?

A single piece of wet copy paper under film will compress enough to polish about a third of a bevel, (convexing).

It has been years, but my experiments with balsa showed that pasted balsa convexed a bevel, probably only microns but, nothing that caused an issue and micro convexity is removed in the first few laps on most finishers.

At the ultra light levels used in The Method, (balsa held in hand vertically, razor just brushed against it) convexing surely occurs, but the effect is laughably small, and certainly much too small to see under magnification. Also while @rbscebu did say resetting the bevel, I don't believe he meant go all the way back to the standard 1k bevel setter. 3u film, even 1u film, would probably fix it just fine. It is resetting the bevel only in the sense that the characteristic profile of the bevel is changed. The added convexity of the pasted hanging leather stropping is eliminated. I dare say that with sufficient magnification, and I mean optically and not SEM, you should be able to see the result of the 1u film as a new bevel surface quickly takes over most of the bevel and then slowly walks out the rest of the way to the edge. I will admit I haven't put this to the test. But most honers who do not use The Method do not realize how light the pressure is at the finish, with the balsa. Deflection of the surface is almost infinitely small. The pressure is so light you won't even bother to use so little, but it does in fact work. I can only speculate on all of the reasons exactly why it works so well, but it does NOT work "so well" when it is done as a mashup of the dogma with more conventional honing styles. And it is difficult if not impossible to get an experienced honer to try it and truly follow The Method, and almost as difficult for the experienced honer who wants to follow it, because of muscle memory and clear knowledge of what already works for him. Nor does the promised edge seem realistically possible, nor is there any perception that his own edge can possibly be improved upon.

Anyway, for a honer who is perfectly satisfied with his own edges, and already owns all the honing equipment and supplies that he will ever buy, there is no reason to upgrade to The Method, anyway. Unless he is selling razors to others or honing razors for others.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

@Slash McCoy and @rbscebu , I actually suspect that .5 balsa might be aggressive enough to correct any excessive convexing from a pasted hanging strop. I say that, because I have a razor that was honed with 8 mil tape by the vendor, that I was hitting all the way to the apex after about 100 laps on .5. Yes, it was a large blade and a thin grind, but I wasn't using any significant pressure or torque. And I've been maintaining it on balsa ever since.

 

[rbscebu]

@Slash McCoy and @rbscebu , I actually suspect that .5 balsa might be aggressive enough to correct any excessive convexing from a pasted hanging strop. I say that, because I have a razor that was honed with 8 mil tape by the vendor, that I was hitting all the way to the apex after about 100 laps on .5. Yes, it was a large blade and a thin grind, but I wasn't using any significant pressure or torque. And I've been maintaining it on balsa ever since.

I agree. It depends on the amount of convexity there is in the bevel and hardness of the blade's steel.

 

[Slash McCoy]

@Slash McCoy and @rbscebu , I actually suspect that .5 balsa might be aggressive enough to correct any excessive convexing from a pasted hanging strop. I say that, because I have a razor that was honed with 8 mil tape by the vendor, that I was hitting all the way to the apex after about 100 laps on .5. Yes, it was a large blade and a thin grind, but I wasn't using any significant pressure or torque. And I've been maintaining it on balsa ever since.

Well done. Just goes to show sometimes you can gitter done with less. I like to be certain, so I go, and recommend, the whole enchilada just to be sure.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Well done. Just goes to show sometimes you can gitter done with less. I like to be certain, so I go, and recommend, the whole enchilada just to be sure.

I was mostly curious if it would work.

 

[nvpliers]

Once you have finished honing on a solid flat honing medium and your SR is shaving comfortably, then and only then do you progress to diamond pasted balsa strops. The pasted balsa does not make a poor edge better, it only refines an already good shave-ready edge.

You can go from a solid whetstone medium to CROx also on a solid flat substrate but you will be wasting your time. There is no need for CROx if using diamond pasted balsa strops.

You will need at least three diamond pasted balsa strops; 0.5μm, 0.25μm and 0.1μm. I also have a fourth, a second 0.1μm balsa strop, that I use for edge maintenance after each shave. This fourth is not really needed but I like it that way.

Initially, after each shave, put the blade through a full pasted balsa strop progression (0.5, 0.25, 0.1 and 0.1 hanging). Once you find that there is no further edge improvement, you can drop back to 0.1μm hanging balsa stropping only after each shave.

Did some experimenting with diamond pastes. I approximated your process, in that I was comfortable in some equipment I already had. So, I got the 0.25 and the 0.10 diamond paste, and applied to those Pebble strops:

Amazon.com - https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MH8YGQ1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Granted not exactly your method, but I definitely employed the diamond past.

So, I tried it out on one of my full hollows. What I gained was for the first time ever, I was able to shave ATG [still carefully], under my nose, and on the chin - the goatee area. Which to date, using straights has been just about impossible on the chin, and absolutely, 100% impossible under the nose. So, for the first time, I was able to get BBS [with a straight], in those difficult areas.

So rbscebu, thank you for this tip. I will likely do some more straights this way. One question...I've been poking around, and got confused when reading CBN vs Diamonds. Not trying to open this debate here, because there already exists threads about such matters. Just wanted to know your experience - or any thoughts you have - regarding the use of these 2 pastes/emulsions.

Thanks again!

Nick

 

[rbscebu]

Did some experimenting with diamond pastes. I approximated your process, in that I was comfortable in some equipment I already had. So, I got the 0.25 and the 0.10 diamond paste, and applied to those Pebble strops:

Amazon.com - https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MH8YGQ1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Granted not exactly your method, but I definitely employed the diamond past.

So, I tried it out on one of my full hollows. What I gained was for the first time ever, I was able to shave ATG [still carefully], under my nose, and on the chin - the goatee area. Which to date, using straights has been just about impossible on the chin, and absolutely, 100% impossible under the nose. So, for the first time, I was able to get BBS [with a straight], in those difficult areas.

So rbscebu, thank you for this tip. I will likely do some more straights this way. One question...I've been poking around, and got confused when reading DBN vs Diamonds. Not trying to open this debate here, because there already exists threads about such matters. Just wanted to know your experience - or any thoughts you have - regarding the use of these 2 pastes/emulsions.

Thanks again!

Nick

I have not used CBN so cannot comment from personal experience. Those who have tried both generally report that they noticed no difference.