I do what works for me, nothing else matter
Why Hone Edge Leading?
- Thread starter rbscebu
- Start date
Hello gents. I have two honing related questions and this seemed the best forum to ask. No this is not to stir the argument on leading edge vs. spine edge honing, but there are these elements in my question and thoughts.
In this video
DrMatt357 shows microscopically how the use of a Shapton Glass 16k stone [presumably leading edge] can very quickly destroy a finished edge. My own general approach would be - assuming I need to reset the bevel, ALL leading edge honing: Shapton Glass 1k and 4k, then finish with 8k, and a Naniwa SS 12k. But since I already had a Shapton Glass 16k, (and before learning of this video), I finished several blades, leading edge...so likely I messed up my edges. I then followed these stones with CROx and Leather stropping (spine leading).
1) So question number one is, to correct whatever mess I made on these edges, do I have to go back to say the 1k and reset the bevels, or can I just kill the edge, say on an 8k, and refinish...say up to just the 12k? Then strop as normal?
2) Question number 2 is. Since I already have the 16k, could this be a safe use for it: After finishing with the Naniwa 12k (leading edge), could I use the Shapton 16k - in a SPINE LEADING honing way, say 7 roundtrips? This way it's kind of like transitioning from the stones to the soft stroppings.
Any thoughts on this greatly appreciated. Sometimes I learn things...the hard way! Ugh!
In this video
DrMatt357 shows microscopically how the use of a Shapton Glass 16k stone [presumably leading edge] can very quickly destroy a finished edge. My own general approach would be - assuming I need to reset the bevel, ALL leading edge honing: Shapton Glass 1k and 4k, then finish with 8k, and a Naniwa SS 12k. But since I already had a Shapton Glass 16k, (and before learning of this video), I finished several blades, leading edge...so likely I messed up my edges. I then followed these stones with CROx and Leather stropping (spine leading).
1) So question number one is, to correct whatever mess I made on these edges, do I have to go back to say the 1k and reset the bevels, or can I just kill the edge, say on an 8k, and refinish...say up to just the 12k? Then strop as normal?
2) Question number 2 is. Since I already have the 16k, could this be a safe use for it: After finishing with the Naniwa 12k (leading edge), could I use the Shapton 16k - in a SPINE LEADING honing way, say 7 roundtrips? This way it's kind of like transitioning from the stones to the soft stroppings.
Any thoughts on this greatly appreciated. Sometimes I learn things...the hard way! Ugh!
Do you have a microscope?
I have the Shapton glass stones 1k,4k,8k and the Naniwa 12k SS is this the progression you use before the Shapton 16K?
I will do the experiment of using the same progression you use then finish w/ the 16k and evaluate under my scope both ways you are asking about.
What razors are you honing? Hard or soft steel?
Are you getting rough shaves from your edges finished on your 16k and have you lapped the 16k well. I have two 16k Shaptons and have seen the errant scratches on edges finished using these stones.
I think to honestly evaluate whether this stone is working for you we would need to replicate your progressing up to the 12k then finish using the 16K Shapton.
Both of mine needed a very aggressive lapping when acquired new, one stone I purchased the other I inherited from a dear friend & honing partner that passed away, this is why I have two.
From my experience using my two stones there are perhaps better > more forgiving options for finishing razors but on hard steel the Shaptons are very competent cutters as they are aggressive. Chipping - errant scratches may be a problem especially if too many laps are done. My best result so far experimenting with the Shap 16k to finish has come from a few very light edge leading X strokes so trying edge trailing will be interesting.
I have the Shapton glass stones 1k,4k,8k and the Naniwa 12k SS is this the progression you use before the Shapton 16K?
I will do the experiment of using the same progression you use then finish w/ the 16k and evaluate under my scope both ways you are asking about.
What razors are you honing? Hard or soft steel?
Are you getting rough shaves from your edges finished on your 16k and have you lapped the 16k well. I have two 16k Shaptons and have seen the errant scratches on edges finished using these stones.
I think to honestly evaluate whether this stone is working for you we would need to replicate your progressing up to the 12k then finish using the 16K Shapton.
Both of mine needed a very aggressive lapping when acquired new, one stone I purchased the other I inherited from a dear friend & honing partner that passed away, this is why I have two.
From my experience using my two stones there are perhaps better > more forgiving options for finishing razors but on hard steel the Shaptons are very competent cutters as they are aggressive. Chipping - errant scratches may be a problem especially if too many laps are done. My best result so far experimenting with the Shap 16k to finish has come from a few very light edge leading X strokes so trying edge trailing will be interesting.
Supposedly the Shapton glass 16k has a rather wide grit distribution and Shapton doesn't recommend it for razors. Plenty of guys have used them though.
1) if you're already honed edges shave comfortably then you don't need to do anything.
2) if you do feel the need to hone them again, you can probably start at 8k. Really depends on the condition of the edge which you can verify with magnification.
3) hopefully someone with more specific knowledge will jump in here, but I believe a Naniwa 12k is pretty similar to a Shapton Glass 16k in terms of the average particle size. Certainly you can shave off the Naniwa.
I don't see much value in doing spine leading strokes on an aggressive stone.
1) if you're already honed edges shave comfortably then you don't need to do anything.
2) if you do feel the need to hone them again, you can probably start at 8k. Really depends on the condition of the edge which you can verify with magnification.
3) hopefully someone with more specific knowledge will jump in here, but I believe a Naniwa 12k is pretty similar to a Shapton Glass 16k in terms of the average particle size. Certainly you can shave off the Naniwa.
I don't see much value in doing spine leading strokes on an aggressive stone.
Depending on how much you "messed" up the edge, it might be enough to gently joint the edge on an 8k and do 5-10 laps on the 16k. I did that on my G7 0.85. I inspected the edge after 10 laps, and it was more or less "back". I think the 0.85 stone is different then the 16k. I do not see random deeper striations, but you can easily overhone the edge with it. After an 8k i just need 5-10 passes, if i got the 8k right.
You could follow up your 12k with say 5 strokes on the 16k. It might work fine if the steel can handle it. You might not gain much, if any in shaving efficiency.
Thanks all for input. I don’t have a microscope. The steel I honed in this progression are modern bokers and dovos, plus an old Sheffield wedge (19th century). So I’m not really sure the hardness of these.
C FrankC. Yes. That would be the progression. But I wouldn’t want you to mess up the edge with the 16k, because Matt’s video was very telling. It wrecked the edge. And the thing is, I’m just learning about razor honing. So, while these edges pass the thumb test, and even pop some tree toppers, I haven’t shaved with these particular razors. I kind of want to not if it could result in issues. But I also understand that the shave would be the true litmus test.
Darth. Maybe in a week or 2, I’ll try reworking one of them from 8k, and see how it performs.
JPO. Thanks. I’ll probably discard the spine leading 16k.
Thanks all. In the meantime, I have other hardware to use until I figure this mess out.
C FrankC. Yes. That would be the progression. But I wouldn’t want you to mess up the edge with the 16k, because Matt’s video was very telling. It wrecked the edge. And the thing is, I’m just learning about razor honing. So, while these edges pass the thumb test, and even pop some tree toppers, I haven’t shaved with these particular razors. I kind of want to not if it could result in issues. But I also understand that the shave would be the true litmus test.
Darth. Maybe in a week or 2, I’ll try reworking one of them from 8k, and see how it performs.
JPO. Thanks. I’ll probably discard the spine leading 16k.
Thanks all. In the meantime, I have other hardware to use until I figure this mess out.
Since you are new to honing, I would recommend you let the 16K sit, it's an aggressive stone & not the best or easiest finisher for razors.
Learn to hone and shave w/ your 1k,4k,8k, and really learn the 12K SS as a finisher. Once mastered that stone will deliver a very good edge. You can see what you might expect on from the Nani 12K on Dr. Matts vid. Many of us can shave very comfortably from the 12K SS once learned. Test shave your current edges; you may be surprised.
Good luck and keep posting about your progress.
Learn to hone and shave w/ your 1k,4k,8k, and really learn the 12K SS as a finisher. Once mastered that stone will deliver a very good edge. You can see what you might expect on from the Nani 12K on Dr. Matts vid. Many of us can shave very comfortably from the 12K SS once learned. Test shave your current edges; you may be surprised.
Good luck and keep posting about your progress.
Thank you! Yeah. I’ll stay away from that 16k.
I go back and forth with decreasing laps - 40, 20, 10, 5, 3, 2, then edge leading for several laps. Stropping always spine leading for obvious reasons.
Update: I spent half a day killing all the edges and resetting the bevels, working with the 1k and 4k stones, and started some of the blades on the 8k finishing. When I get the time, I plan to finish the blades out to the Naniwa SS 12k. NO MORE 16k. Is this over kill? Perhaps But my issue is this…about 10 years ago, I began traditional wet shaving - primarily with double edge razors. At one point, very early on, I tried straight razor shaving. It was horrendous. Very quickly, I gave it up.
Then not long ago, I got the bug to try SR shaving again. But this time I was armed with a bit more knowledge; more specifically, that the quality of the blade and their edges plays a HUGE factor. I never knew that before. So, I just don’t want to leave anything to chance. I want to eliminate one variable - the edge quality - so that the rest is on my developing skill level. So, I’m in the process of trying to “perfect” all my edges.
I kind of proven this out to some degree. I received, during this time of messing up all my edges and trying to fix them, a professionally sharpened and polished Hart Steel 6/8 at 1/4 hollow. That thing shaved great. It made a big difference in my ability to SR shave. So this encouraged me to get the best edge as possible, so the rest is on my skills. So we’ll see how this all works out. Thanks again all for your help!!
Then not long ago, I got the bug to try SR shaving again. But this time I was armed with a bit more knowledge; more specifically, that the quality of the blade and their edges plays a HUGE factor. I never knew that before. So, I just don’t want to leave anything to chance. I want to eliminate one variable - the edge quality - so that the rest is on my developing skill level. So, I’m in the process of trying to “perfect” all my edges.
I kind of proven this out to some degree. I received, during this time of messing up all my edges and trying to fix them, a professionally sharpened and polished Hart Steel 6/8 at 1/4 hollow. That thing shaved great. It made a big difference in my ability to SR shave. So this encouraged me to get the best edge as possible, so the rest is on my skills. So we’ll see how this all works out. Thanks again all for your help!!
- Thread starter
- #51
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
@nvpliers once a SR has a good shave-ready edge, you can very noticeably improve that edge with diamond pasted balsa stropping.
Thank you. Yes. I’ll check into that for sure.
I think I remember you saying something similar before. Interestingly someone I was talking to on KKF said this about the SGs just a couple of hours ago:
'apart from the 2K and 16K, am not a fan.'
This person (like me, ish) sharpens knives professionally. And, again like me, I know prefers lower grit finishes in general. Ideally most kitchen knives should be probably be finished between 800 and 4k, maybe up to 8k if that's your bag. And the lower it is the more difficult it tends to be to do it well.
A 16k synth is wildly higher than I would ever consider for a knife, so it surprised me that he said that. But makes more sense in light of what you've just said.
Shapton rates each stone not just by grit, but by grit distribution, sharpening sensation/feedback and a few other factors. The 16k have a larger spread in particle size then say the 10K. The 16k is not recommended for razors by shapton probably for this reason. The 10k is also higher priced then the 16k. I think this also apply to the 3k and the 4k. The 3k is more expensive then the 4k. The 3k has a higher rating on what they call sharpening sensation then the 4k. Maybe there is more polishing agents in the 3k. I have the 3k HR, but i do not have the 4k to compare.
And then you have the GS7 stones. They are a little different again. My 0.85 micron GS7, which is the closest to the 0.92 micron 16k does does not give these detrimental effects on the edge, as have been shown with the 16k.
I am not sure, but i suspect that the GS7 stones do have a more narrow grit distribution then the larger stone. The grit rating is quite close to the bigger stones. I have no idea how they rate their stones. Is it based on grit particle size, or is it the width of the scratches they leave? I would assume it an average of one or the other. Then it makes sense to me that the GS7 stone in fact might be more suited for razors, especially for the finest stones.
The characteristics i look for in a stone for knife sharpening does not align with my preference for razor honing.
If someone says they are not a fan of the glass stone, what do they mean. Which stone did they try, on which steel?
You have the HR the HC and the regular, in addition you have the GS7.
For my kitchen knifes i prefer the Naniwa pro 2k over my GS 3k HR. That might change if i get different knifes.
There is a good post on The Science of Sharp, (Sharpening with the King 1k/6k combination stone) with excellent micrographs on edge leading and trailing strokes.
In short edge leading abrades the steel at the edge and the steel micro chips shortening the burr or preventing it from forming.
Honing edge trailing, spine leading draws out the steel forming a longer burr.
Edge leading strokes are not as straight or keen as edge trailing, but keep in mind the tests are on a 6k stone, and which is why we use a progression of finer stone or thinner slurry to improve edge keenness.
Edge trailing finish strokes have been used in Japanese Kamasori honing as super lite finishing strokes (only 2or 3), for years. If you do too many laps the burr becomes too long/fragile and will not last, breaks off forming a ragged edge.
In short edge leading abrades the steel at the edge and the steel micro chips shortening the burr or preventing it from forming.
Honing edge trailing, spine leading draws out the steel forming a longer burr.
Edge leading strokes are not as straight or keen as edge trailing, but keep in mind the tests are on a 6k stone, and which is why we use a progression of finer stone or thinner slurry to improve edge keenness.
Edge trailing finish strokes have been used in Japanese Kamasori honing as super lite finishing strokes (only 2or 3), for years. If you do too many laps the burr becomes too long/fragile and will not last, breaks off forming a ragged edge.
After you finish with the diamond pastes, do you still leather strop on bare leather before each shave?
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
When honing edge-leading, you are biasing pressure slightly onto the edge, because you are pushing the razor over toward the edge. When you are leading with the spine, you are pushing the razor back onto the spine slightly. The effect is rather small but it seems to be there. When going edge leading, the apex gets a tiny bit more love.
I have tried finishing with the spine leading. I don't detect any difference. Some guys do, it seems. A different hand, different technique, a different edge. Different causes and different effects.
Very few honers lead with the spine, and most of those only do so right at the end of the finish stage. It's not a new thing, either. When in doubt, follow the herd, and if you are wrong, at least you are in good company. Of course experimenting can be interesting, particularly to the onlookers eager to view a disaster or hopeful that a better way will be found.
I have tried finishing with the spine leading. I don't detect any difference. Some guys do, it seems. A different hand, different technique, a different edge. Different causes and different effects.
Very few honers lead with the spine, and most of those only do so right at the end of the finish stage. It's not a new thing, either. When in doubt, follow the herd, and if you are wrong, at least you are in good company. Of course experimenting can be interesting, particularly to the onlookers eager to view a disaster or hopeful that a better way will be found.
- Thread starter
- #58
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
Yes, just very lightly and with the strop held taught so that there is no noticeable deflection of the strop while stropping. Around 40 to 50 laps should be plenty.
Ok. Thank you!
I hope I can bother you one more time. I was trying to filter through some of the info...regarding the diamond paste, do you progress from .25, then to 0.1? Or do you jump directly to 0.1 from your stones and/or CROx?
