I see this on soap boxes all the time but never know what it actally means.
Is there quadruple milled?
Is there quadruple milled?
What does 'triple milled'?
- Thread starter duotone
- Start date
It means they make the soap, then grind it up, then press the grindings back together. Three times. This makes a denser, harder cake of soap that will last a very long time instead of turning to mush. IMHO, triple milles shaving soaps are the very best.
Tim
Tim
This is a very quick overview: http://www.ehow.com/facts_4967334_what-triple-milled-soap.html
There are two basic ways of forming a bar of soap, pour/press, and milling. The first involves pouring the soap into molds and sometimes pressing the molds to compact the soap for a denser bar. The second is milling, which is a mixing and rolling process that creates uniform size particles that can be extruded and/or molded into very dense bars. Triple milled is considered the standard in luxury soap making. I have not heard of a quadruple milling process. Probably it has been tried, but the improvements to the soap were determined not worth the expense of an additional set of millling equipment.
There are two basic ways of forming a bar of soap, pour/press, and milling. The first involves pouring the soap into molds and sometimes pressing the molds to compact the soap for a denser bar. The second is milling, which is a mixing and rolling process that creates uniform size particles that can be extruded and/or molded into very dense bars. Triple milled is considered the standard in luxury soap making. I have not heard of a quadruple milling process. Probably it has been tried, but the improvements to the soap were determined not worth the expense of an additional set of millling equipment.
It means,.....it was milled three times!
Duhhhh....
Thanks for the definitions. I've always thought of it as one of the many BS phrases used in advertising. Most readers *really* aren't sure of its meaning, but assume it must be an indication of quality.
Check this out.....
http://www.touchofeurope.net/mm5/me...=15087&Category_Code=Portugal&Store_Code=tofe
They claim their product is milled seven times!
Thanks for the definitions. I've always thought of it as one of the many BS phrases used in advertising. Most readers *really* aren't sure of its meaning, but assume it must be an indication of quality.
Check this out.....
http://www.touchofeurope.net/mm5/me...=15087&Category_Code=Portugal&Store_Code=tofe
They claim their product is milled seven times!
That seems...excessive.
Soap has some really neat chemistry and is fun to learn about and experiment with if you've got some basic equipment.
- Thread starter
- #7
It means,.....it was milled three times!
Cheers!
Triple milled soaps, or French milled soaps, are made of a typical combination of a fatty acid (oil or fat) in reaction with lye (sodium hydrochloride). After the soap is made, it is dried into crystals, then rolled at least three times between large stainless steel rollers until a paste is formed. The paste is then pressed into soap molds, and triple milled soap is created.
Most milled soaps have other ingredients other than lye (sodium hydroxide), water and a blend of oils. They usually have high amounts of stearic acid (which is a hardener) among other ingredients such as detergents and usually a preservative. They are soaps that are similiar to what is mass produced and sold in stores like walmart but ground back up, rolled and pressed into a mold.
Soap by definition :
http://www.foodsafety.gov/~dms/cos-215.html
http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/ucm074201.htm
Soap by definition :
http://www.foodsafety.gov/~dms/cos-215.html
http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/ucm074201.htm
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The headline on the listing shows that it was milled 7 times, but in the item description it lists 8. They mill it so many times they can't keep track!
Rather than quality, we should consider triple-milled (or n-milled) soap a measure of uniformity. It is ground up and milled some number of times to ensure that any additives and perfumes, etc. are evenly distributed. Secondarily (as noted above), the process can remove moisture, though a really moist cake of soap will stick to the milling equipment, so I expect soap manufacturers sublimate or heat their soap to remove moisture before milling.
krissy said:
Most industrially produced soap is made from 80/20 soap base, which is 80% tallow, and 20% coconut oil mixed with potassium or sodium lye (usually a very high percentage of sodium). Stearic acid, which can be used as a hardener for foods such as candy, is a saponifiable fatty acid (it's more or less a tallow molecule without the glycerin attached), so commercial soap is high-stearic soap. Some cleansing bars are mostly/all detergent, but bath soap bars are almost all 80/20 soap base. This kind of soap is hard, and easy to mill.
If they are 80/20 then there should be no other ingredients used which doesn't account for the other ingredients that are used in them. And the bath bars I have looked at all have quite a few ingredients listed.
Stearic acid can be both animal based and vegetable based. Given that stearic acid is a modified ingredient it can't be compared with what it use to be. Thus also given not knowing if the producer used vegetable or animal based stearic acid.
Yes it is saponifiable but it has a different function in soap than tallow and they are no longer the same ingredient because the stearic has been changed IF it comes from an animal source.
Stearic acid is much harder than tallow and it also adds to the creamy lather given in soap. While tallow is less hard, but it also provides some conditioning (moisturizing) properties and also less creamy lather in soap. Tallow also provides more iodine in soap making it a softer soap than stearic acid which is why so much stearic acid is used in soap commercial soaps. While tallow brings more to the party when looking at the fatty acids.
There are many types of soaps on the market and the best way to determine it's make up is to look at the ingredient list and break it down into individual ingredients and what each one's function is.
Yep, if they didn't have other ingredients (perfumes, colorants, emollients, whatever), it would all be the same soap; or else it would be a detergent bar.
Yep, I was just trying to simplify my explanation of milled soap. There's also no such thing as a "tallow molecule", but I didn't think folks would be interested in the breakdown of oleic, stearic, palmitic, and myristic fatty acids (differentiated by how many carbon atoms are in the molecule) in tallow.
No, stearic acid is stearic acid, whether it comes from cocoa butter, beef fat, etc.
The reason tallow soap has moisturizing properties over and above stearic acid soap is because of triglycerides (glycerol) attached to the fatty acids in tallow. As I said, stearic acid, by definition, doesn't have any triglycerides attached to it.
One thing I've wondered about - maybe you guys can help straighten me out. I always hear about tallow's moisturizing properties in bath soaps, and that tallow-based shaving soaps produce the creamiest lather. It gets to be such a common thing - talking about "tallow" soaps - that it seems as though a lot of people lose sight of the fact that the so-called tallow in soap has been saponified; therefore, it is no longer really tallow (i.e., lard), but is the sodium salt (i.e., soap) that forms when the tallow has reacted with the saponifying agent. So, what I'm wondering is, how much of a fat's properties, whether it be tallow, olive oil, palm oil, etc., remain once that fat has been saponified? Is sodium tallowate that much different from sodium palm kernelate, for example? I've tried tallow soaps, and I've tried various veggie soaps, and I don't find the tallow soaps to be any more moisturizing, or produce any creamier lather, unless they have been superfatted, or contain added emollients.
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You are 100% right. Tallow has a mix of fatty acids (as I noted above, though the list isn't complete) and glycerin, and these fatty acids all react with the lye. What's left isn't tallow, but the soap carries the "signature" of that mix of fatty acids recognizable as "made with tallow".
One small correction -- usually tallow is rendered beef fat, and lard is rendered pork fat.
Great question! I am not a chemist (I don't even make soap myself), but here's my best answer. The difference in soap qualities (not including any non-soap additives like perfumes, colorants, skin-feel additives, preservatives, foaming agents, etc.) comes from the mix in oils and fats. The difference among those oils or fats is primarily the number of carbon atoms (with their attached hydrogen atoms) in the hydrocarbon chain that makes up the fatty acid.
I don't, however, understand how the length of the carbon chain in the molecule affects the soap, and whether the type of molecular bond (double, single) makes a difference, or what difference the shape of the fatty acid makes (some are straight, some curved, some horseshoe-shaped).
The question about moisturizing is a little easier. Most naturally occurring oils/fats occur with a glycerol attached. Depending on how many fatty acid chains are attached to the glycerol, it's a mono-, di-, or triglyceride. When you saponify the soap, you break the glycerol off and the fatty acid binds with the alkaline lye. The glycerin has an affinity for water, and thus can hold moisture against your skin once you're done with the shower. It is possible to make soap without any glycerin, either by boiling it off or by making soap with just fatty acids.
Lastly, one note about superfatting. Excess oil in the soap is great for ensuring that there's no free/unreacted lye, but too much excess oil will kill the lather. The amount of superfat (or, in rebatching, added oils) also contributes to the moisturizing qualities of the soap.
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. If the mix of the different types of fats is what makes the difference in soap qualities (taking non-soap additives out of the equation for the sake of discussion), then I take that to mean that each of those fats do have unique qualities and, perforce, differences between them when they are saponified, yes? That gets to the heart of my question, which is, what are those differences? How is saponified tallow different from saponified olive oil, or saponified palm oil, or saponified coconut oil? More to the point, what has given rise to the notion that a tallow-based soap is superior to an all vegetable-oil based soap? In my experience, the lone criterion of whether or not a soap is tallow based is not the clinching factor in how a soap performs. But I also acknolwedge that my experience might be affected by other factors, such as all the non-soap additives you mentioned, or how it is manufactured, the quality of the ingredients used, etc. So, is there some technical reason why a tallow-based soap should be superior to a vegetable-based soap, all other things being equal? Or is that unsupportable on a scientific level, really making it yet another example of YMMV?
saponified tallow = All animal tallow's are not created equal. They all provide different qualities to bring to the finished product. But for the sake of example I'll use beef tallow. It is a hard base oil, (harder than palm oil in fact) and it provides some cleansing properties which means how much of the natural oils it will remove from the skin since all soaps clean. It provides a decent amount of skin conditioning properties which refers to how much of the soaps emollients are left on the skin. It doesn't provide any bubbly lather but a high amount of creamy lather.
saponified olive oil = Olive is another great oil, but when used in higher amounts it does get rock hard if it's given enough time to cure and harden. It's often used because it's cleansing number is very low so it doesn't remove many of the natural oils on the skin. But it has a very high conditioning benchmark so it moisturizes well. It doesn't provide much lather at all, either bubbly or creamy. Many describe it's lather as being slimy and most people either love it or hate it.
saponified palm oil = Palm oil is another great oil that is used to give hardness to the soap. It doesn't remove much of the natural oils on the skin and provides some moisturizing properties. It doesn't give much of a bubbly lather but does add to the creamy lather.
saponified coconut oil = Coconut oil is another oil that multi-tasks in many ways. (Palm Kernel Oil is similar but is not exactly like coconut oil so many people use a blend of the two.) Coconut oil is partly used as a base oil because it's much harder than the other oils. But on the down side it also provides a lot of cleansing properties that removes the natural oils on the skin. Many people are sensitive to using high amounts of coconut oil because it can cause the skin to feel overly dry and tight. While providing very little in terms of skin moisturizing. But another main reason why it's used is because of the great bubbly lather it gives soaps, but very little creamy lather.
Not all oils are created equal and they all bring special properties to soap and when used in the right balance (amounts) you can get a great bar of soap. Too much or to little of one or another and you will run into problems.
As far as the question goes is one better than the other. The answer is personal preference. Some really prefer all vegetable oil based soap and are grossed out at the thought of animal fat in their soaps. Some just prefer knowing that their soap has animal fat in it. And some just don't care as long as it works. It's all about preference and the actual soap recipe being used. Because the right or wrong blend of oils does make a difference in the final bar of soap.
saponified olive oil = Olive is another great oil, but when used in higher amounts it does get rock hard if it's given enough time to cure and harden. It's often used because it's cleansing number is very low so it doesn't remove many of the natural oils on the skin. But it has a very high conditioning benchmark so it moisturizes well. It doesn't provide much lather at all, either bubbly or creamy. Many describe it's lather as being slimy and most people either love it or hate it.
saponified palm oil = Palm oil is another great oil that is used to give hardness to the soap. It doesn't remove much of the natural oils on the skin and provides some moisturizing properties. It doesn't give much of a bubbly lather but does add to the creamy lather.
saponified coconut oil = Coconut oil is another oil that multi-tasks in many ways. (Palm Kernel Oil is similar but is not exactly like coconut oil so many people use a blend of the two.) Coconut oil is partly used as a base oil because it's much harder than the other oils. But on the down side it also provides a lot of cleansing properties that removes the natural oils on the skin. Many people are sensitive to using high amounts of coconut oil because it can cause the skin to feel overly dry and tight. While providing very little in terms of skin moisturizing. But another main reason why it's used is because of the great bubbly lather it gives soaps, but very little creamy lather.
Not all oils are created equal and they all bring special properties to soap and when used in the right balance (amounts) you can get a great bar of soap. Too much or to little of one or another and you will run into problems.
As far as the question goes is one better than the other. The answer is personal preference. Some really prefer all vegetable oil based soap and are grossed out at the thought of animal fat in their soaps. Some just prefer knowing that their soap has animal fat in it. And some just don't care as long as it works. It's all about preference and the actual soap recipe being used. Because the right or wrong blend of oils does make a difference in the final bar of soap.
Thanks, Krissy. That helps. 
The headline on the listing shows that it was milled 7 times, but in the item description it lists 8. They mill it so many times they can't keep track!
I agree -- plus, who knows how much tallow is in a "tallow-based soap"? It could be as little as 5 or 10%. And Dial bath soap doesn't make very good shaving soap, but it is made from (the last time I checked) 80% tallow!
No, there's no technical reason. And, using the same combination of fatty acids, you should be able to generate a total tallow cognate using only vegetable-derived oils. Tallow doesn't have a totally consistent oil composition, but within parameters, yeah, it should be do-able. Of course, there are several intangibles here too. First, cost. getting all those purified oils (and guaranteeing they're from a vegetable source) and mixing them in the right proportions would be difficult but not impossible. Secondly, how far down the rabbit hole do you go? does (say) 4% of a specific hydrocarbon make a difference? what if it is a saturated versus unsaturated oil? Lots of variables to deal with to really "clone" the tallow performance.
