Water retention

[justinp]

Why do people always mention how well a brush retains water when they review/describe it? I don't understand how the amount that it holds onto is relevant when the first step in virtually every "making lather" process is to shake most of the water out of the brush...

Thoughts?

 

[okey]

yeah i aggree that i am baffled by this also. I only have a synthetic cheap brush and my daily runner which is an omega boar. I soak my boar for a couple of minutes then shake hard a few times and have found this works with different soaps and a cream equally well. Am i missing out on something ?

 

[beginish]

You don't notice it until you use a brush that doesn't retain water. The retained moisture in the brush integrates with the soap/cream as your swirling, and starts building lather initially without adding any extra. You obviously do have to add more water as you make your lather, but it gets started much more easily. Check out Brush Chronicles #1 for the trials and tribulations of lathering with a brush that doesn't retain water.

 

[Wil Dorenbos]

Why do people always mention how well a brush retains water when they review/describe it? I don't understand how the amount that it holds onto is relevant when the first step in virtually every "making lather" process is to shake most of the water out of the brush...

Thoughts?

Almost any brush (boar, horse or badger) will retain more water then needed, hence the shake. So I agree that this point seems to be overrated.

 

[JPDyson]

I think it's important to understand your brush's capacity for holding water - from that, you know just how much to shake or squeeze when starting the lathering process.

I may differ from many of you here in terms of "lathering theory" but I actually don't like adding water several times to achieve the desired outcome. I'd prefer to start with about how much water I'll need, already in the brush. However, there still remains the point that I have yet to find a brush which didn't hold too much water when simply soaked. Now, soaking has other purposes - in brief, it warms and softens the bristles, and leaves you with a reproducible amount of water in the brush. But no matter which brush I grab, I've got to shake it out, at least a little.

To put a finer point on it, it's useful in a review because it helps you understand what to expect from that brush when you start to lather with it. That is, whether it'll need to be shaken out well (because it clings to every drop of water you give it) or only a little (because it tends to let the water run out). Not so much a measure of better/worse, but then again, neither is density, tip softness, or several of the other things we talk about with regard to brushes.

It's hilariously common for us to say this, but it comes down to preference.

 

[sj184]

I never understood this in my early days. Now, however, it makes sense to me. I forked out for an expensive badger and it holds lots of water. The water mized with the soap/cream deep within the brush to create a fantastic, creamy lather, quickly and easily. I face lather and over 3 passes, I never need to add more water.


I agree with previous posters, that it doesn't necessarily mean better or worse. For my style, it is definately better. And, I saw this when I tried some other brushes and always went back to 'the one'.

Without sounding snobbish, I would take a guess and say that those using the serious high end badgers might understand/appreciate this more than others because it is usually these brushes that have this attribute in abundance.

 

[Shavely Manden]

Why do people always mention how well a brush retains water when they review/describe it? I don't understand how the amount that it holds onto is relevant when the first step in virtually every "making lather" process is to shake most of the water out of the brush...

Thoughts?

If a brush doesn't hold water well, it won't hold as much lather, you'll have to add more water in the lathering process, &c. At the same time, you might have to adjust your technique if a brush holds more or less water than you're used to -- probably why synthetic brushes get a bad rap, since they hold barely any water (to judge by my Omega Sintex).

 

[Hercule]

For your entertainment, a previous thread on this topic:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=169424

 

[JPDyson]

For your entertainment, a previous thread on this topic:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=169424

That thread also touched on the merit soaking versus simply running a brush under water - it's relevant to the issue of water retention, as both eventually come down to how much water is in the brush when you start mixing. I actually experimented with "rinsing" vs "soaking" for a little bit after that.

What I have found, universally, with all types of brushes, is that if I start them soaking before I jump in the shower, I get dead-on consistent results. That's because there's a predictable amount of water that the brush has absorbed and held onto. Plus, my brushes are nice and warm.

My badgers could survive skipping the soak far better than my boars, and still stayed sensibly warm (owed to the merits of badger hair in general). However, my boars ended up sucking moisture out of my lather if not soaked. I also had to re-figure out how much water to leave in or shake out each day. Also, I had to stand there and hold the brush under the faucet, which only costs me a minute or two, actually. I could get by like this if I had to, but it turns out it was less efficient for me.

 

[Hercule]

I suspect when it comes down to it the issue isn't one of water retention to start making lather, as I doubt the bristles themselves give up very little, if any, water that they have absorbed when creating lather (I would submit that the 99.99% of water which creates lather is actually superficial to the bristle itself - held by the density of the knot and the surface area within the gathering of bristles, thus more correctly knot water retention.) but the issue is actually moisture absorption by the brush once the lather is already made and sitting in the brush. Several have commented on lather drying out after the initial pass. And this makes sense. Soaking and thus saturating the bristles would avoid this to an extent. (I wonder how much of lather drying out can be attributed to evaporation or sublimation?)But don't most people refresh their lather before applying for a second or third pass any way, which would mean adding water as necessary? It's really an academic issue and you jusrt need to settle on what works best for you with your equipment.

 

[mcandre]

Too much water retention? Rinse in cranberry juice.

 

[JPDyson]

Seems mostly accurate; the lather is only made up of water that's held between the bristle and not absorbed into the bristle. It's always been my theory that a saturated brush will likely steal less water from the lather. A relevant consideration about evaporation and sublimation: I can only say for sure (in my experience) that a well-soaked Boar yields longer lasting lather that doesn't dry nearly as quickly. Either the moisture in the lather is evaporating, and it's replenished by the water-logged bristle (seems unlikely), or the water-logged bristle is simply not absorbing moisture from the lather, and evaporation is taking too long to cause a noticeable difference in moisture. We're talking about just a few minutes here - less time than evaporation on that scale would require (particularly in my humid, post-shower bathroom).

As to "refreshing lather" between passes, do you mean re-loading the brush, or just adding water back? I rinse between passes and leave my face wet, and rarely find any additional "refreshing" necessary. If you're talking about reloading your brush, then that changes things quite a bit.

 

[Mr. Styptic]

So far the discussion has been all about water retention and lathering, but what bothered me in my move from badger to boar is that the boar didn't hold the water/lather combination as well when I put the brush to my face. The boar brush is prone to dribbling onto my chest and arms, which is a little annoying.

 

[Wil Dorenbos]

So far the discussion has been all about water retention and lathering, but what bothered me in my move from badger to boar is that the boar didn't hold the water/lather combination as well when I put the brush to my face. The boar brush is prone to dribbling onto my chest and arms, which is a little annoying.

Think your brush is too wet.

 

[Zumkopf]

1) You absolutely need water to make good lather. A lot of water. It took me a long time to figure this out; I needed more water than I thought.

2) Your lathering is affected by how much water your brush holds. Too much water in the brush, and you never get beyond that watery bubble paint stage. Too little water, and all you have is soap scum. Just right, and whammo!

3) Hydrophilic brushes will steal water from your lather mix during your shave. A water-hog brush will quickly dry your lather out, making it necessary to re-mix at least once during a longish shave.

4) Stemming from (2) and (3), your lathering technique -- how much you load the brush with soap/cream, how much water you add while mixing, how long it takes to build -- should vary depending on the brush you are using, how long you soak it before lathering, and how long you take to shave. You will get radically different results between a synthetic brush and a boar under all circumstances. You will get radically different results with a boar if you soak it for five minutes before using, vs. rinsing and running.

So yes, I think the water-retention properties of a brush are important to mention.

 

[JPDyson]

...So yes, I think the water-retention properties of a brush are important to mention.

Pertinent comments, Zumkopf. Thanks!

 

[DE Shaver]

I may differ from many of you here in terms of "lathering theory" but I actually don't like adding water several times to achieve the desired outcome.

I'm in agreement with you in this regard. While adding more water if needed isn't taboo, I would rather get is right out the onset and move on to generating lather. Knowing your gear (including water holding capabilities) is a key to consistency and with consistency comes reliable, good shaves.

 

[JPDyson]

I'm in agreement with you in this regard. While adding more water if needed isn't taboo, I would rather get is right out the onset and move on to the generating lather. Knowing your gear (including water holding capabilities) is a key to consistency and with consistency comes reliable, good shaves.

True. Plus, and I'm only speaking for myself, but I SWEAR my lather is better if I get the water about right in the beginning vs. adding it later.

YMMV (I'm careful not to discredit the "add as you go" theory as it's way more popular).

 

[DE Shaver]

True. Plus, and I'm only speaking for myself, but I SWEAR my lather is better if I get the water about right in the beginning vs. adding it later.

YMMV (I'm careful not to discredit the "add as you go" theory as it's way more popular).

It might be a matter of mindset. Once you are off and try to compensate, it just doesn't seem to click together. I've also noted my lather is best if I get it right off the bat as well. Go figure. Regardless, use what works best for you.