Uneven honing

[ShaveyMcShave]

Hi guys,

Hope you can help me with this one. I'm pretty new to honing, and am slowly improving. I've got a practice blade that I'm using, and it seems to be getting sharper.

The problem that I'm having is that it's sharpening really well at the ends of the blade, but the middle seems to stay about the same.

I've flattened my norton 1000/4000 block with 600 grit sandpaper on a marble surface, and it seems to be very flat. I've also tried using diagonal and straight strokes to see if I can even it out, but sill no luck.

The only indicator I can see on the blade iself is that on one side of the blade, the edge is a little wider on one side than the other, so it might have a very minor bend in it (maybe?).

Any thoughts on what I can do to correct this?

 

[azmark]

Hmmmm........when you say bend that sounds bad. Was it tapped against something?

Also was this razor shaving before and you're now honing it again? Or was this an ebay purchase? I only ask that because I've run across some blades that just no matter what will not take a perfect edge due to the condition of the blade.

 

[ShaveyMcShave]

Hmmmm........when you say bend that sounds bad. Was it tapped against something?

Also was this razor shaving before and you're now honing it again? Or was this an ebay purchase? I only ask that because I've run across some blades that just no matter what will not take a perfect edge due to the condition of the blade.

The Bend is just a guess, and yes it's an eBay purchase (hanging my head). I'm trying to teach myself to hone and haven't got the guts to do it to my real razor. It's an older Bengal that seemed to be in pretty good nick...no rust, chips, etc.

 

[Legion]

Do you have a loupe or a microscope? Is the bevel not forming in the middle on both sides or just one?

 

[azmark]

What stones do you have to hone with?

My experience with older Bengals is that they are in pretty bad shape but still able to be honed. One thing to keep in the back of your mind is that if there is any heavy rust, patina or what I and others call "devils spit" there is some major honing issues to where the steel is just too weak to hold an edge. I've had this happen plenty of times so don't worry if it's just a practice blade. Older Bengals, like some Wade & Butchers are notorious for this since they are very old manufacturers.

Aside from what I mentioned above, we'll move on to what to expect if you have a healthy piece of steel.

1. you will need a low grit hone. Without seeing the quality of the blade we'll shoot for a DMT 600. This is going to do your repair work and begin to establish your bevel.

2. A DMT 1200. This will remove scratch patterns from the 600 and refine the bevel to a level of sharpness.

3. Now the fun stuff. Some mid level 3k-5k hone (Norton 4/8k combo for example)

4. Your sharpening stone ~8k stone. Will do your sharpening.

5. Finishing stone/polisher. If you're new I would not recommend on spending too much time and money here until you feel you got the hang of the other steps. One reason.....you will likely not do the steps correctly. That's OK. One thing I struggled with and I'm sure most who do their own honing is not progressing correctly. If you don't spend enough time removing the scratches from the previous stones and you move to the next one you're done for, you won't make any improvements and will have to begin from nearly the beginning.

The finisher is very important but right now concentrate on getting it sharp and ready for the finisher because that is where most of the frustration sets in. You can get a pretty good shave if you have your honing down to the 8k and the polisher will just amazing when you move to it and begin to experiment.

 

[ShaveyMcShave]

Do you have a loupe or a microscope? Is the bevel not forming in the middle on both sides or just one?

I've got a loupe around here somewhere...I'll see if I can dig it up and get back to you

 

[ShaveyMcShave]

What stones do you have to hone with?

I've got a 4000/8000 (not the 1000/4000 as per my original post - brain fart). Aside from that I've only got sandpaper and a chunk of marble. I've never set a bevel before, but have read up on the theory.

Do you think I can mange to set the bevel using 600 grit paper and the marble? Or should I invest in a hone? If the latter, can you recommend one?

 

[jkh]

Use a permanent marker (Sharpie) and color the entire length of the bevel on both sides. Give the blade three or four strokes. Spots where the marker was not not removed are trouble areas.

 

[Legion]

I've got a 4000/8000 (not the 1000/4000 as per my original post - brain fart). Aside from that I've only got sandpaper and a chunk of marble. I've never set a bevel before, but have read up on the theory.

Do you think I can mange to set the bevel using 600 grit paper and the marble? Or should I invest in a hone? If the latter, can you recommend one?

Ahhhhh. Yes, it is hard to set a bevel with a 4k. You can do it with paper but I would invest in the stone. A norton 1k might be a good bet for not too much money.

 

[Wid]

The Norton 220/1000 is a good combo to have. I use the 220 side if there are any heavy chips in the blade. The 1K side will easily set the bevel on most razors.

I really do like using the black sharpie to see what's going on with the edge.

 

[ShaveyMcShave]

Use a permanent marker (Sharpie) and color the entire length of the bevel on both sides. Give the blade three or four strokes. Spots where the marker was not not removed are trouble areas.

Ok, so this test yielded some interesting results. (see pics below). Looks like the middle bit is contacting on both sides, and the ends are barely wearing.

The pics aren't the best quality 'cause I only have my phone handy, but what they show is on the front, the sharpie is still showing at both ends. The edge tapers nearly to the tip from a width of about 1mm in the centre.

On the back, the sharpie's removed completetly except at the heel for about 1 cm, which hasn't been touched at all.

What do you make of this?

 

[azmark]

I've got a 4000/8000 (not the 1000/4000 as per my original post - brain fart). Aside from that I've only got sandpaper and a chunk of marble. I've never set a bevel before, but have read up on the theory.

Do you think I can mange to set the bevel using 600 grit paper and the marble? Or should I invest in a hone? If the latter, can you recommend one?

Yeah you can use the 600 paper but IMO I don't think it's worth learning on it if you plan on purchasing a bevel setter. A DMT 1200 (6x2) is about $35 and a good investment and as someone has mentioned a Norton 220/1k combo is also good but since a lot of heavy work is done on those sizes they will need more lapping than the 4/8k combo. IMO I would stick with DMT stones 600 and 1200. A 1200 will move some steel and will remove very minor dings or chips (just did one last night) so that is the minimal I would go for.

You have your Norton combo and you're pretty well set. Now you just have to evaluate your razor and make sure the steel is healthy and able to take an edge and that can usually be evaluated when working a bevel.

 

[azmark]

A couple of things can yield these results.

Blades with smiles will do this but not necessarily bad. Many blades come with a slight smile on them. Are you using an X pattern when honing? From the looks at the razor it is very doable to hone it and that smile isn't anything to worry about if it isn't as bad as your camera may show.

If you don't use an X pattern attempt the same sharpie test with an ex pattern.

Ok, so this test yielded some interesting results. (see pics below). Looks like the middle bit is contacting on both sides, and the ends are barely wearing.

The pics aren't the best quality 'cause I only have my phone handy, but what they show is on the front, the sharpie is still showing at both ends. The edge tapers nearly to the tip from a width of about 1mm in the centre.

On the back, the sharpie's removed completetly except at the heel for about 1 cm, which hasn't been touched at all.

What do you make of this?

 

[ShaveyMcShave]

Yeah you can use the 600 paper but IMO I don't think it's worth learning on it if you plan on purchasing a bevel setter. A DMT 1200 (6x2) is about $35 and a good investment and as someone has mentioned a Norton 220/1k combo is also good but since a lot of heavy work is done on those sizes they will need more lapping than the 4/8k combo. IMO I would stick with DMT stones 600 and 1200. A 1200 will move some steel and will remove very minor dings or chips (just did one last night) so that is the minimal I would go for.

You have your Norton combo and you're pretty well set. Now you just have to evaluate your razor and make sure the steel is healthy and able to take an edge and that can usually be evaluated when working a bevel.

Thanks mate, I'll see what I can find in the way of DMTs (I live in Australia, so these tend to be abit pricey)

 

[ShaveyMcShave]

A couple of things can yield these results.

Blades with smiles will do this but not necessarily bad. Many blades come with a slight smile on them. Are you using an X pattern when honing? From the looks at the razor it is very doable to hone it and that smile isn't anything to worry about if it isn't as bad as your camera may show.

If you don't use an X pattern attempt the same sharpie test with an ex pattern.

Ok, I've just tried an X pattern, and it showed pretty much the same results...

 

[Wid]

Try the rolling x stroke . That should give you good results.

 

[danjared]

Ok, I've just tried an X pattern, and it showed pretty much the same results...

Were you using a rolling X or just an ordinary X? This sounds to me like the issue is your honing stroke and not the stone or razor. For what it's worth, many consider a razor with a pronounced smile harder to learn on than one with little to no smile.

 

[ShaveyMcShave]

Were you using a rolling X or just an ordinary X? This sounds to me like the issue is your honing stroke and not the stone or razor. For what it's worth, many consider a razor with a pronounced smile harder to learn on than one with little to no smile.

It was just a regular stroke...I'll see if I can get the hang of a rolling x and re-post....

Thanks for the link Wid

 

[dakotaev]

I had similar issues when I first started, the smile could give you some trouble until you get into the rythm of things.

The rolling X takes a bit of practice but the sharpie should help you know when you're getting it right. Also a microscope will do wonders, my honing really took off when I started using a microscope, anything should do, I use an old children's microscope from the 50's & a book readers LED light to illuminate the edge. It works very well.

 

[Legion]

Thanks mate, I'll see what I can find in the way of DMTs (I live in Australia, so these tend to be abit pricey)

Where are you in OZ? Carbatec has a range of hones. I bought a King 800 grit there which you can use for bevels and it was pretty inexpensive. Especially when you factor in what shipping from overseas would cost. They also sell DMT.