The Pope and Muslims

[MJB]

So the Pope made some comments perhaps taken inside or outside of context. Reports suggest thaty he has spurred outcries across the Islamic world with some protests certainly taking violent overtones at the very least.

There are demands from apologies and worse.

Potential talking points:

(1) The Pope really spoke out of turn and had no business making these comments.

(2) Seems like the Islamic world takes offense easily--e.g. cartoons of Mohammed, Satanic Verses, etc and then makes demands with violent overtones. At the same time, they will burn effigies and descecrate the symbols of others.

(3) What we are seeing is just the publicized outcry of a few where the majority Islamic opinion may be less reactionary.

(4) A few are making a mountain out of a molehole for the purposes of distraction, empowerment, etc...

(5) Should the Pope apologize or will an apology feed an impression that Islamic issues are off limits for critical evaluation but not the other way around?

(6) Is this whole issues really a non-event blown out of proportion but the press for many potnetial reasons?

I realize here that this may be touchy and some may not wish to comment. I also realize that my own personal bias may be reflected in the question--though believe me I am trying to be even handed. I do think this is important however so thought I'd post it.

 

[kozulich]

I think if we can't discuss issues - any issue - openly and without fear, and if we have lost the right to disagree with opposing points of view and to call them evil or good if we genuinely believe that they are evil or good, then intolerance has finally won.

 

[Austin]

The Pope should probably clarify his point to making these comments. What I read was that he was making a speech in an academic environment. Therefore, there may be more to story than was reported.

 

[ada8356]

Therefore, there may be more to story than was reported.

I agree with this statement. It would seem that the media, in a effort to create a story where there may not really be one, has been irresponsible in the way that they have covered this issue. Firstly, by only reporting the statement with no kind of context, secondly by giving camera time to the ones 'protesting'.

I heard someone comment yesterday to the effect of maybe the Muslims should look internally at doing a little house cleaning before getting up in arms at the Pope.

It would seem that the Christian is quite a bit more tolerant and not so easily offended.

On the other hand, the Pope does represent Christianity to the rest of the world and therefore has much more preceived power than any single Muslim.

 

[ada8356]

Uh, am I the only one that finds a bit of irony with the following:

" Firebombings left black scorch marks on the walls and windows of Nablus' Anglican and Greek Orthodox churches. At least five firebombs hit the Anglican church and its door was later set ablaze. Smoke billowed from the church as firefighters put out the flames

In a phone call to The Associated Press, a group calling itself the "Lions of Monotheism" claimed responsibility for those attacks, saying they were carried out to protest the Pope's remarks in a speech this week in Germany linking Islam and violence. "

Irony!?

The article HERE if you care to read the whole thing.

 

[Mama Bear]

The Pope and the Middle East have been at odds with each other since the time of Christ. I am sure there are good reasons for this that the majority of us are unaware of. I did not hear his comments tho and would love to... does anyone have a link to his comments? I would love to check this out...

Thanks!

Sue (Mama Bear)

Remember the outcry over the cartoons....? Why should religion dominate our world? I thought religion was passive.......

 

[ada8356]

Here ya go:

Pope's speech at University of Regensburg (full text)

 

[Mama Bear]

I am (as always ) struck by the comments regarding the 16th century reformers and again allegations pointing towards the new religion beliefs of the late 20th century... This was an amazing speech. I am not sure I will understand all of it's ramifications even after reading it a few times. It is easy to preach for peace after the Crusades have ended, isn't it... but I have to say, I am all for it. It has been a long time, don't you think it should end already?

Some of the de-Hellenisazation points are quite interesting, don't you think? We need to stop fighting over religious beliefs that are taught to us as children, and start fighting for things that we actually believe in during these days and times.

I will be reading this text for quite some time to come.. Thank you ada8356.

Sue, who's interest has been sparked in many ways....

 

[nichhel]

Frankly I've always liked the new pope much better than the old pope. He makes no bones about where he's coming from, and doesn't seem to be apologizing for his religion. The fact that Ratzinger seems to get a lot of anti-popey panties in a twist is just icing on the popey-cake .

Not that it takes much to get those islamo-panties in a twist

 

[Mama Bear]

Ain't dat de trut....

 

[olkev]

(2) Seems like the Islamic world takes offense easily--e.g. cartoons of Mohammed, Satanic Verses, etc and then makes demands with violent overtones. At the same time, they will burn effigies and descecrate the symbols of others.

" . . . The remarks sparked protests and some violence across parts of the Muslim world.

Earlier Sunday in the West Bank, two churches were set on fire as anger over the pope's comments grew throughout the Palestinian territories.

In the town of Tulkarem, a 170-year-old stone church was torched before dawn and its interior was destroyed, Christian officials said. In the village of Tubas, a small church was attacked with firebombs and partially burned, Christians said. Neither church is Catholic, the officials said.

Palestinian Muslims hurled firebombs and opened fire at five churches in the West Bank and Gaza Strip Saturday to protest the Pope's comments, sparking concerns of a rift between Palestinian Muslims and Christians . . . "

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa060917_wz_pope.1ae86343.html

I think you pretty well hit the nail on the head right here. It seems as if it is their way or the highway.

 

[Stauff]

My only remark is this one: It will be impossible to ever come to terms with people who have chosen to take EVERYTHING literally. With Rushdie they did it, when pres. Bush talked about a 'crusade' after 9/11they took it literally, when a Danish paper publishes some ironic cartoons they did it, and now they're doing it again. I'm so sick and tired of this fascist nonsense. Time for radical 'Aufklärung' (enlightenment) in the Middle East!

 

[ada8356]

My only remark is this one: It will be impossible to ever come to terms with people who have chosen to take EVERYTHING literally. When pres. Bush talked about a 'crusade' after 9/11, they took it literally, when a paper publishes some ironic cartoons they did it, and now they're doing it again. I'm so sick and tired of this nonsense. Time for radical 'Aufklärung' (enlightenment) in the Middle East!

Yes, well this kind of comment goes both way. We have plenty of Christians here that take things written in the bible WAY too literally.

The bigger problem is the realtive wealth in western world dimishes a lot of religious fervor whereas, in many mid-east areas, there is a good deal of poverty which makes people much more susceptible to radicalism.

 

[nichhel]

Yes, well this kind of comment goes both way. We have plenty of Christians here that take things written in the bible WAY too literally.

True, but when they firebomb (**) they don't have the support of the majority of the populace. And after all, the Bible is meant to be taken literally. You cannot pick and choose from it (and if you did, back in ol' 1356 you'd be stoned to death for it).

Still, some of the christianity-related videos on youtube are both risible and scary (there's one with a lot of overtones of the children's crusade of the middle ages).

The bigger problem is the realtive wealth in western world dimishes a lot of religious fervor whereas, in many mid-east areas, there is a good deal of poverty which makes people much more susceptible to radicalism.

Not entirely true. More than radicalism, it prevents them from escaping the prevailing mindset. For that they have to come to America (Europe apparently doesn't suffice).

I'm not a fan of apologia though, and to some extent people get what they deserve. Out west, they (usually) have better things to do with their time, a capability for critical aloof analysis etcetera. I would say more than poverty per se, it is the conflux of factors one would term a 'third world mindset', or even better, middle-ages mindset (nothing to do with people aged 35-55, honest! ).

A lot of this mindset is religion induced, or rather religion-encouraged. All religions, or rather I should say Churches[1], would much prefer people to meekly submit to the official doctrine, and in that sense, disallow a capacity for critical, secular thinking. There is a reason christianity is gaining far far more adherents outside of the Western world while in the west Time magazine can publish articles on the death of god (off-topic: read the book American Gods if you get a chance).

An example of this is the way commerce in the middle-east is (or in the bygone Ottoman empire, or even in 16th century England was) beholden to religious sanction. You're in fear of the thought-police all the time.

In that sense, the current 'struggle of civilisations' is testament to the fact that from the time of the Crusades onwards the West has only risen higher, whereas the East has mostly mired itself (a reversal in their respective fortunes, when the Moors could look down on the state of Europe).

well, with that little silver lining, I'll be quiet now, go watch Borat, and come back with a changed opinion

-- dan

[1] using Church here in the sense to mean the established theocratic power structure that claims its power from an erstwhile prophet, thus including all religions of the Book, as well as Eastern religions with established institutions.

** --edit-- just want to point out that I never meant to suggest firebombings are a regular part of christian discourse, and I apologize if anyone's taken my comment to mean that. It was meant essentially as a rhetorical device.

 

[jduffy]

I don't think the Pope ever listened to his mother or otherwise he would have known:

"If you don't have something nice to say don't say anything at all."

 

[Stauff]

Yes, well this kind of comment goes both way. We have plenty of Christians here that take things written in the bible WAY too literally.

The bigger problem is the realtive wealth in western world dimishes a lot of religious fervor whereas, in many mid-east areas, there is a good deal of poverty which makes people much more susceptible to radicalism.

Well, the guys who flew into the twin towers weren't that poor and uneducated, now were they? Is Bin Laden a poor and supressed man?
I'd say there is a small extremist intellectual (and financial) elite that controls the minds of many real poor people. As long as the West can be portrayed as the big Satan, no internal changes will ever take place in these countries .

 

[zachster]

Uh, am I the only one that finds a bit of irony with the following:

" Firebombings left black scorch marks on the walls and windows of Nablus' Anglican and Greek Orthodox churches. At least five firebombs hit the Anglican church and its door was later set ablaze. Smoke billowed from the church as firefighters put out the flames

Ironic on many levels, given that the Greek Orthodox and the Anglicans aren't even Papists!!!

 

[JohnP]

Frankly I've always liked the new pope much better than the old pope. He makes no bones about where he's coming from, and doesn't seem to be apologizing for his religion. The fact that Ratzinger seems to get a lot of anti-popey panties in a twist is just icing on the popey-cake .

Not that it takes much to get those islamo-panties in a twist

I'm not even Catholic, and at some intrinsic deep level, I am not even sure I trust the Pope......but I agree with you. I can respect him for telling it like it is, instead of how everyone wants to pretend it is.
So far he is a man I can respect, even if he were not the Pope.
John P.

 

[ravkesef]

Let's see if i got it right: the Pope delivers an address in which he cites another work which cites a Byzantine emperor who introduces (mostly as a rhetorical notion) the idea that Islam accepts violence, an argument which the rest of the citation refutes, and to prove that the thought behind the citation is incorrect, today's Muslims resort to violence. OK. I understand. I think.
I've got two doctorates. Doesn't make me smart, but I think I know violence when I see it.
Eric

 

[Mama Bear]

Let's see if i got it right: the Pope delivers an address in which he cites another work which cites a Byzantine emperor who introduces (mostly as a rhetorical notion) the idea that Islam accepts violence, an argument which the rest of the citation refutes, and to prove that the thought behind the citation is incorrect, today's Muslims resort to violence. OK. I understand. I think.
I've got two doctorates. Doesn't make me smart, but I think I know violence when I see it.
Eric

I wish I could understand why they have to resort to murder and bombings over a religious statement. Does anyone here understand the though process behind Holy Jihad? How can they possibly justify it?

Sue (Mama Bear)