The first time my edge has been TOO SHARP

[SavantStrike]

I just recently put a fresh edge on daily shaver about a week or two ago, and have shaved with it maybe 5-10 times since then. The edge was a nice smooth shave thanks to excessive passes on my C12k. Using the blade in the state it was in was a pleasure, and I would say it was a gentle as a kitten but still got the job done nicely.

Then I tried my Sanguine for the first time and loaded it with an Astra. Uh oh... it felt sharper . The ease with which I was able to trim my upper lip with the Sanguine convinced me that I needed to try and make my daily shaver sharper. Out came the lapping films I ordered.

I took my razor through 1 micron for a few passes (didn't feel like dragging out the C12k), then hit it up for multiple passes at .50 micron. I finished with quite a few passes on .1 micron.

The test shave today was insane. There was all kinds of cutting, but it felt a bit rough. A few swipes on chromium oxide took the roughness out but then it just felt smooth and overly sharp. A few more swipes and it was managable, but the nice blade had changed from a kitten into a lioness .

The shave was insanely close, but I felt a tad bit irritated when all was said and done. I also can't imagine how much more work this edge is going to be to maintain... I gave it 10 more swipes on chromium oxide to try and take the edge off it a bit. I guess I like a docile edge after all...

 

[Chimensch]

I would be very interested to hear about how long this sharp edge lasts for you. My theory is that edges that sharp don't last long and I would like to know if you can confirm that or not.

 

[mparker762]

Back when I was regularly going for feather sharpness (using newspaper or 0.1 micron diamond paste on poplar) the edges only lasted a few shaves. For one thing, I generally couldn't strop them on linen or latigo without dulling them - this is when I ditched my latigo strops and switched to horsehide and cordovan. Unfortunately these edges also caused the same skin-thinning problem that I got from feathers, so I finally got tired of that game and backed off on my sharpness. Nowadays I stop at Linde "A" or the Harbor Freight white stick, which seems to be about as sharp as the edges can go and still be maintainable with my linen strops so they last a decently long time.

FWIW, my longest-lasting edges have come off of my Shapton 30k, Nakayama Maruka Asagi, and chromium oxide. I don't think there's anything special about those abrasives, it's just that that seems to be right around the sweet spot between sharpness and strength. Finer edges show signs of microchipping after a dozen shaves or so, although stropping on linen will keep them shaving ok for a surprisingly long time. Coarser edges just seem to get duller without obvious signs under the microscope. But the ones coming off the 20k-30k hones stay sharp and look good for about 3 months of daily use before they start showing the strain under the microscope, and even then stropping will keep them shaving for much longer.

 

[Chimensch]

Nowadays I stop at Linde "A" or the Harbor Freight white stick, which seems to be about as sharp as the edges can go and still be maintainable with my linen strops.

This is interesting because I had never thought that the strop might have something to do with why these super-sharp edges don't last long.

Here is a video of a barber explaining how to give a straight shave. Notice that he insists that you should always use a sliding stroke. I've worked on mine and the effect is to make the blade feel sharp and smooth like pastes. I think this is an example of how barbers coped with the lack of high tech hones to get smooth shaves.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6502106680110094707&ei=qZFMSc2YFoS4-QGs7ZW-Cg&q

 

[leighton]

Interesting. I wonder if the edge is so thin at the very edge that the stropping motion eventually breaks it off. ??? I don't have an answer or a theory.

 

[Utopian]

You're likely already aware of this but maybe a reminder is in order. A sharper razor requires a lighter touch during the shave. It might not make the shave perfect but it should reduce some of the irritation.

 

[SavantStrike]

Back when I was regularly going for feather sharpness (using newspaper or 0.1 micron diamond paste on poplar) the edges only lasted a few shaves. For one thing, I generally couldn't strop them on linen or latigo without dulling them - this is when I ditched my latigo strops and switched to horsehide and cordovan. Unfortunately these edges also caused the same skin-thinning problem that I got from feathers, so I finally got tired of that game and backed off on my sharpness. Nowadays I stop at Linde "A" or the Harbor Freight white stick, which seems to be about as sharp as the edges can go and still be maintainable with my linen strops so they last a decently long time.

FWIW, my longest-lasting edges have come off of my Shapton 30k, Nakayama Maruka Asagi, and chromium oxide. I don't think there's anything special about those abrasives, it's just that that seems to be right around the sweet spot between sharpness and strength. Finer edges show signs of microchipping after a dozen shaves or so, although stropping on linen will keep them shaving ok for a surprisingly long time. Coarser edges just seem to get duller without obvious signs under the microscope. But the ones coming off the 20k-30k hones stay sharp and look good for about 3 months of daily use before they start showing the strain under the microscope, and even then stropping will keep them shaving for much longer.

I thought you said you didn't use your 30k any more?

With the same blade I used today I got ut 1-2 months (more like 1 ), coming straight off of my C12k and using harbor freight white on nylon (imitation canvas ). I think my latigo strop is holding me back. It's got a heavy draw to it, but it doesn't feel quite right for fine stropping. I want horsehide to complete the package now, and have wanted it for a while. Thanks for "confirming" my suspicions .

You're likely already aware of this but maybe a reminder is in order. A sharper razor requires a lighter touch during the shave. It might not make the shave perfect but it should reduce some of the irritation.

You're not kidding! This thing immediately told me who was boss, and if I didn't like it, things would get ugly. It got my upper lip smooth with less work than normal, but I don't think it was worth the trade off in comfort on the rest of my face. I guess a few months of shaving isn't enough and I need to work some more on my technique so I can keep using my "dull" C12k edges in comfort .

I bailed on the edge this afternoon and hit it with extra passes on crox. It's now smooth again but not quite so obnoxiously sharp.

I may keep experimenting with the .50 micron lapping film to see if I can get an edge that feels like a crox edge, but lasts longer. Whatever I do I'm not a fan of the idea that I might have to hit the hones/films every weeks to touch the edge up. That's too much hassle, and there is something to be said for being able to shave with a "dull" edge.

 

[mparker762]

I thought you said you didn't use your 30k any more?

I haven't used it in a couple of years, at least I don't remember using it (but my memory isn't what it used to be). The edges last a long time - I've got multiple razors with 4-6 months on them. However, on razors I've sharpened recently I tend to jump straight from the 8k Shapton to the Linde "A" or Harbor Freight white stick on a linen paddle strop, and strop them till the bevel's shiny. No HHT or other edge tests, just look at the reflection off the bevel, and when it's a mirror it's done. It's an absurdly simplistic way to hone but it works like a charm. It does mean my honing skills are pretty much nonexistent nowadays, though.

 

[Tolduonce]

I've gotten that freakishly sharp edge two or three times myself. Always after messing around with a Lynn honed blade. Just like you, I learned the hard way that those hyper tweaked razors can be some nasty fellas. I have noticed that a hanging Latigo tends to dull them down more than a paddle Latigo. Yet, every so often, something makes me want to go for the stupid-sharp blade.They are manageable but I almost have to double my shave time and practice an almost trance-like focus to keep from getting shredded. Right now, I save those shaves for Saturday mornings and make sure the phone ringer is turned off and the cat is locked in the basement. One benefit: The blade dislodges any ingrowns. One liability: The edge doesn't last for more than a shave or two. Oh the curse of testosterone!!!

 

[cityjim]

You'll find that super edge no doubt sharp will fall away fast .

I find for a heavy beard like mine , I destroy a super fine edge like you describe Savantstrike . Course YMMV . Good luck with the journey on the ultra sharp blade .


cityjim

 

[Chimensch]

I've gotten that freakishly sharp edge two or three times myself. Always after messing around with a Lynn honed blade.

IMO the honemeisters are honing defensively, i.e., producing the sharpest possible blade so that a newbie can't say the blade wasn't sharp enough. But, these super-sharp blades are counter-productive in the long run because they are so labor-intensive to maintain. The newbies share some of the blame because they have high expectations and low tolerance for frustration.

 

[cityjim]

No doubt Chimensch .

I could dismember someone off a 400 grit "American" stone . I think the term sharp is rather vague .


cityjim

 

[cityjim]

I just recently put a fresh edge on daily shaver about a week or two ago, and have shaved with it maybe 5-10 times since then. The edge was a nice smooth shave thanks to excessive passes on my C12k. Using the blade in the state it was in was a pleasure, and I would say it was a gentle as a kitten but still got the job done nicely.

Then I tried my Sanguine for the first time and loaded it with an Astra. Uh oh... it felt sharper . The ease with which I was able to trim my upper lip with the Sanguine convinced me that I needed to try and make my daily shaver sharper. Out came the lapping films I ordered.

I took my razor through 1 micron for a few passes (didn't feel like dragging out the C12k), then hit it up for multiple passes at .50 micron. I finished with quite a few passes on .1 micron.

The test shave today was insane. There was all kinds of cutting, but it felt a bit rough. A few swipes on chromium oxide took the roughness out but then it just felt smooth and overly sharp. A few more swipes and it was managable, but the nice blade had changed from a kitten into a lioness .

The shave was insanely close, but I felt a tad bit irritated when all was said and done. I also can't imagine how much more work this edge is going to be to maintain... I gave it 10 more swipes on chromium oxide to try and take the edge off it a bit. I guess I like a docile edge after all...

The Chinese 12K stone is only about 1,850 ANSI or American grit or roughly 1.2 micron.

For comparison the Spyderco 306UF is 2,000 ANSI American grit . Much finer stone at the 1 micron level .


cityjim

 

[professorchaos]

I'd certainly agree that there is such a thing as too sharp. Sure you can get 30 hour shaves out of them, but you pay a price. Trial and error has led me to believe I prefer an edge similar to what you might get if you could finish on a ~.375 diamond paste. A very nice, close shave that you can repeat every 24 hours without irritation.

 

[SavantStrike]

I'd certainly agree that there is such a thing as too sharp. Sure you can get 30 hour shaves out of them, but you pay a price. Trial and error has led me to believe I prefer an edge similar to what you might get if you could finish on a ~.375 diamond paste. A very nice, close shave that you can repeat every 24 hours without irritation.

I think they call that crox .

 

[Tolduonce]

The Chinese 12K stone is only about 1,850 ANSI or American grit or roughly 1.2 micron.

For comparison the Spyderco 306UF is 2,000 ANSI American grit . Much finer stone at the 1 micron level .


cityjim

That's good information to have. Wondering if you'd considering posting ANSI grits for other common stones, maybe as a sticky.

 

[SavantStrike]

Well I went back and shaved with the blade again today, but the over-sharpness was no longer a problem as I had already smoothed it out on crox a few days ago.

A nice comfortable shave. Nothing like the status quo .

I think I'll stay with the edges straight off my C12k, with a few passes on crox as I see fit. I could probably also get away with just doing extra passes on my nylon hanging strop as Mparker has mentioned, but then I wouldn't have an excuse to use the crox.

I may keep screwing around with the .50 micron lapping film too just "because."

 

[professorchaos]

I think they call that crox .

Believe it or not, I don't like how chromium oxide shaves.* Nor, for that matter, the Chinese 12K.*

(Not meant as snidely as it comes across)

 

[SavantStrike]

Believe it or not, I don't like how chromium oxide shaves. Nor, for that matter, the Chinese 12K.

I was just yanking your chain.

I can believe it. The .50 micron lapping film felt a whole lot different to me than crox, even though they are "similar." I will try diamond paste at some point too and then I'll actually have a better basis for comparison.

So far I like both the diamond film and the crox, though maybe edging towards the crox. The crox feels duller, yet smoother IMO.

As for the C12k, the edge is smooth, but it's not as sharp as others to be sure. My real knock is that it's slow, although at least to me, the edge is buttery enough to make up for it. YMMV and all that. I think I may actually prefer edges that aren't as sharp though.

 

[professorchaos]

Sorry about that, I posted before I got all my thoughts down... Do you think that the C12K feels smooth in a similar manner to how the CrOx feels smooth?

I never had much success with either. The C12K was far too slow and the CrOx felt unpolished, for lack of a better descriptor. Being the stubborn sort, it took me a while to figure out that my honing was fine, I just didn't like the edge.