The downstroke

[rhgg2]

Hi all,

I'm interested to know how other people handle the downstroke (in towards you,) when stropping.

For the outward stroke I think everyone does the same thing. Thumb on underside of tang, index finger on top, (EDIT: i.e., on the jimps), bit of torque, and off you go.

For the return stroke there are I think three possibilities, none of which I find entirely satisfactory:

1) Grip the tang between the thumb and index finger and rotate the whole arm. So for the return stroke the thumb is still on the underside of the tang and the index finger is still on the topside, but the grip is upside down.

2) Sort of "ratchet" the blade around in two 90 degree steps keeping the wrist and the thumb and index finger in place. So you go from thumb on bottom, index on top, to thumb on show side, index on plain side, to thumb on top, index on bottom. Then you start the downstroke.

3) Roll the tang between the thumb and index finger while rotating the wrist outwards. Now for the return stroke the tang rests on the pad of the index finger while the thumb presses down on the opposite corner (towards the bottom of the tang on the show side)

Comparing these: 1) is ridiculous, it kills your shoulder, no go. I have been alternating between 2) and 3) every month or so. 2) works pretty good but is kind of ungainly and hard to do at speed. 3) is what most people I've seen seem to do but I find it super hard to generate enough torque to get good edge contact on the downstroke. I can do so if I am super super careful but again it is hard to do at speed. This is particularly hard with small light blades.

So I'm interested if other people have thought about this, experimented with this or have other approaches I haven't considered!

 

[silverlifter]

4) Thumb and forefinger on the sides of the tang, with wrist neutral and complete the outward stroke. Then at the top of the strop, slightly **** the wrist so that the blade turns over and then complete the inward stroke. Flipping the blade means that the thumb naturally rides to the top of the tang, giving you leverage for torque, and the forefinger slides under, but retains grip on the side closes to you.

WFM!

**** is a male chicken, but the filter doesn't like it!

 

[rhgg2]

4) Thumb and forefinger on the sides of the tang, with wrist neutral and complete the outward stroke. Then at the top of the strop, slightly **** the wrist so that the blade turns over and then complete the inward stroke. Flipping the blade means that the thumb naturally rides to the top of the tang, giving you leverage for torque, and the forefinger slides under, but retains grip on the side closes to you

I think this is the same as my 3), I should have clarified, by the top and bottom of the tang I mean the bits where the jimps are. When the blade is lying flat those are indeed on the side

 

[ArtVandelay123]

I was always told to flip the razor with only your fingers, mostly, like if you were turning a volume knob.
That did help me a lot.

 

[rhgg2]

Oh yeah, right! That is option (4). There is a nice video demonstrating this approach. However this is only possible if your strop is more or less horizontal. Then you can rest the scales on your unrolled middle, ring and pinky fingers and just turn like a pencil. However if your strop is at an angle sloping up or down like mine then you have to curl the supporting fingers do as not to drop the scales. Then you can't just roll because the scales hit the curl of the fingers. So either you have to ratchet as in (2) or turn the wrist as in (3).

I guess another point with (3) is where, exactly, the thumb rests on the downstroke. It's sort of on the top corner of the tang, but the pad can press down either more on the jimps or more on the flat side of the tang. The former actually seems to make it easier to apply torque.

 

[Frank Shaves]

In my opinion, stropping is underated and there is a shortage of good stropping videos. I do something similar to what Alfredo (@Doc226) does in this video:

I mostly roll my wrist with some finger action. The light bulb moment for me was keeping the spine on the leather/cloth and raising the edge before changing direction and lowering the edge after changing direction.

Running a few laps without letting the edge make contact with the leather/cloth before doing the actual stropping has helped me.

 

[silverlifter]

what Alfredo (@Doc226) does in this video

Team 4) for the win!

That's a nice tip about holding the end of the kanayama: I'm definitely going to swap to that. Thanks @Frank Shaves!

 

[Frank Shaves]

Took me a couple of years to gain consistency stropping and the amount of pressure I need to apply to get good strokes has also decreased over time. Seems to just take time.

 

[ArtVandelay123]

For me personally, taking the wrist movement out of it really did great things

 

[Frank Shaves]

Good video - thanks for sharing, @ArtVandelay123!

To state the obvious, everyone is different and you need to figure out what works for you.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Try gripping the tang with the thumb and index fingers on opposite corners, then flipping the razor with the thumb, like flipping a switch. The thumb pad on the lower tang corner that is on top. When you flip the thumb pad shifts to the other bottom corner that is now on top for the return stroke.

You control the amount of pressure/torque with the thumb. A corner is always in the center of the thumb pad.

The spine never leaves the strop, at the end of the stroke, stop, start your flip with the thumb, lifting the edge off the strop, begin the return lap and gently land the bevel after an inch or two of travel.

The flip is done with just the thumb, no wrist, arm, or shoulder involved, pretty much what Art Vandelay is demonstrating, except that the bottom tang corners are in the center of the thumb pad.

It is impossible to cut your strop if you land the bevel when the spine is in forward movement. You also will not slam the edge into the strop using your wrist or arm in an awkward position.

My shop strop is a little above shoulder height on a hook, my bathroom strop is attached to a doorknob with a 20-inch loop of para cord, strop height does not matter.

Also, good, flax linen is way under rated, Tony Miller has a good inexpensive herringbone linen, that I use daily, and I have a very well washed and rolled super soft and floppy vintage firehose linen strop in the shop. I strop on firehose between stone and before the finish laps on the finisher or nagura.

A clean aggressive linen will change your life, ok maybe not your life, but will improve your edges. Try the thumb flip.

 

[DrStrange]

4) Thumb and forefinger on the sides of the tang, with wrist neutral and complete the outward stroke. Then at the top of the strop, slightly **** the wrist so that the blade turns over and then complete the inward stroke. Flipping the blade means that the thumb naturally rides to the top of the tang, giving you leverage for torque, and the forefinger slides under, but retains grip on the side closes to you.

WFM!

**** is a male chicken, but the filter doesn't like it!

This is the childishness that we've been reduced to.

Search results for query: c0ck

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[DrStrange]

Keeping the spine on the strop,
I put my thumb on the bottom of the tang
and I use my finger tips to roll the razor one way or the other.

I think this is the same or pretty close to what most guys are doing.

 

[Gamma]

I strop left to right, the leather attached to the bench on my right, holding the end with my left hand.
The strop is pretty horizontal/level, and perpendicular to my line of sight.
Typically, my fingers don't move, just my wrist. Thumb pad on jimps, index sorta curled over the top of the tang. Scales pushed back to meet the inside of my fingers the pinky loops over the scales to hold it in place.

 

[Wid]

I’ve never paid much attention to my technique. I do know I use my wrist and finger in the flip and go left to right on the upstroke and right to left on the downstroke

My strop is nearly level while stropping.

 

[rhgg2]

Thanks everyone for your comments and the videos!

I tried out a few things which are apparently unrelated to the grip method but which watching and reading brought to light:

• Grip a bit further along the tang towards the blade, like when honing
• Anchor point on the far end. I have rope attached to the strop hardware and the rope attached to a door handle. Attaching the hardware straight to a hook makes the stropping surface much more stable
• Not stropping end on to the strop but closer to what @Gamma and @Wid describe. Now I am holding the strop at about 45 degrees to my body.

Particularly this last change is giving considerably more consistent good downstrokes!

 

[Alum of Potash]

In my opinion, stropping is underated and there is a shortage of good stropping videos. I do something similar to what Alfredo (@Doc226) does in this video:

I mostly roll my wrist with some finger action. The light bulb moment for me was keeping the spine on the leather/cloth and raising the edge before changing direction and lowering the edge after changing direction.

Running a few laps without letting the edge make contact with the leather/cloth before doing the actual stropping has helped me.

Yes, Sham's video as linked here is pretty much the way as far as I'm concerned. Only things different for me are that I start stropping from the top of the strop and that I hold both stropping elements together when stropping.

 

[CutsLikeBrokenGlass]

Hi all,

I'm interested to know how other people handle the downstroke (in towards you,) when stropping.

For the outward stroke I think everyone does the same thing. Thumb on underside of tang, index finger on top, (EDIT: i.e., on the jimps), bit of torque, and off you go.

For the return stroke there are I think three possibilities, none of which I find entirely satisfactory:

1) Grip the tang between the thumb and index finger and rotate the whole arm. So for the return stroke the thumb is still on the underside of the tang and the index finger is still on the topside, but the grip is upside down.

2) Sort of "ratchet" the blade around in two 90 degree steps keeping the wrist and the thumb and index finger in place. So you go from thumb on bottom, index on top, to thumb on show side, index on plain side, to thumb on top, index on bottom. Then you start the downstroke.

3) Roll the tang between the thumb and index finger while rotating the wrist outwards. Now for the return stroke the tang rests on the pad of the index finger while the thumb presses down on the opposite corner (towards the bottom of the tang on the show side)

Comparing these: 1) is ridiculous, it kills your shoulder, no go. I have been alternating between 2) and 3) every month or so. 2) works pretty good but is kind of ungainly and hard to do at speed. 3) is what most people I've seen seem to do but I find it super hard to generate enough torque to get good edge contact on the downstroke. I can do so if I am super super careful but again it is hard to do at speed. This is particularly hard with small light blades.

So I'm interested if other people have thought about this, experimented with this or have other approaches I haven't considered!

TLR Based on past experience, I was ill prepared for the practical realities of wet shaving but have cut myself on almost anything you can imagine in a kitchen or on a worksite that has an edge, am comfortable with blades & tools so I’m all too conscious of the worse case scenario of using something called a “cut throat” on my mouth & throat. I also never imagined how soft “High carbon steel is. Wiping something that’s suppose to be razor sharp up and down a strip of leather seemed absurd. I only did it cause that’s what they do in the movies. But it turns out it’s not just important it can actually ruin the cutting edge. Since you said you’re a reader & I’m a talker I leave this here for what it’s worth. My experience was with post-war cutlery which requires a hone to have a Rockwell score higher than the blade and agricultural tools; axes, madock, chisels, hatchet, tobacco ax, toothed cutting blades/chains. Looking at tutorials, blogs and marketing for wildly expensive restoration and sharpening wasn’t very helpful. Presenters were confident about what they were saying but it didn’t seem to track with my experience and often even basic earth science. Like celebrity chefs marketing clamp down sharpening systems they say need to be used weekly if not daily there was clearly some malarkey to wade through. I have Zswilling 5 Stars w/ polymer handles that I’ve only had to stone sharpen once since I got them in 2001 that cut as well as limited production Shun, Miyabi, Blackwood handle Ikon by Wuhstof, 80’s forged Sebatier, Takeshita Sami, etc… so someone charging $75-100 to machine an antique sounded as honest as trying to sell a pull through electric sharpener as an accessory for a $1500 block set. The audacity of claiming to restore a full hollow grind much less saber hollow is why we can’t have nice things. Since every razor is unique; composition of the steel, balance of blade/tang/scales, tightness of the pivot, bevel of the blade, depth of grind, thickness of the blade, appropriate degree below bevel edge, blah blah blah… hold it the same as when you use it. Grip strength comes from your 4th/5th wrapping into your palm, fine motor from the 3rd, stability, directionality & rotation are the opposing force of the 2nd and thumb. With the scales flipped so they are between the tang & shank I hook my 5th into the crook of the tang, the bulk of the weight is now supported in any position and I open or close the scales to find the balance. Reminder: stropping grip looks upside down backwards of shaving. 2nd & 3rd are on the side of the shank away from me. 2nd curled in for grip and the 3rd loose enough to add/subtract by adjusting pressure and position. The thumb goes on the lip of the spine on the side between me & the razor. My 2nd finger is on the far side of the blade but just kind of pointed out into space. Clearly that 2nd is going to have to alternate support and pressure throughout the stroke. This is all anecdotal but #1) The blade must have rested for at least a couple days. If you’re not taking at least passes your just playing with it. If the cutting edge hasn’t fully dried the burr won’t have fully separated so the benefits will be minimized. 40-60 passes on 2” wide tanned bison is my baseline. Maybe a few warm ups on canvas when it’s close to needing to go on a stone. #1-a) Always, 100% of the time, any time your razor touches anything else maintain continuous contact and roll backwards over the spine to reverse direction. #1-b) Never for any reason tap a razor, cutting edge, spine or blade against anything or drag anything along the cutting edge. Trying to get that tight spot at they top of your lip against your nostril but you’re a little to the left or right? Just ease it into position…. wrong. Take the edge off your skin adjust and try again. Soap and stubble didn’t rinse off under the tap? Pick up your shaving towel and wipe it off…. wrong. You take that towel and with your thumb on the spine push the excess fabric diagonally away from you. Think you’ve got a black belt in hipster wet shaving & reducing water consumption so you use a mug to keep your brush wet and to rinse the blade? First you’re dumb cause you’re going to ruin that brush but the blade is dripping all over the place after you dunk into the soapy room temp water? Hey, you’ve got this, just flick off the extra suds… wrong. Unless your impervious to sudden movement, load noise and enjoy stitches #2) Correct, consistent tension has to come solely from your non dominant hand. Holding the strop and handling the razor have to be completely disconnected. #3) The strop must always be flat so that the bevel edge is uniform. #4) A 4 stroke pass is next level skill so unless you’re ambidextrous just stick with the basic up & back. #5) The strop must be anchored so that when pulled it doesn’t rotate or twist. You inevitably you’ll shift your weight, change up your grip… if the strop wracks you’re starting over #6) The cutting edge must be in the same relative position as when shaving, that one should be self apparent #7) At the same time, stropping is about heat and friction so a relaxed grip is best. Pressure should come from a single point source: your thumb #8) Given these things your hands and arms need to be at a comfortable working height so you’re not wasting effort simple holding it together. For most people that’s somewhere past 90* bend at the elbow. #9) Uniformity is the inherent value of repetition. If something has to be done 60x they all need to be the same or you wouldn’t need to do so many. You must have the same degree of sensitivity and control at each end of the pass. Can you say that is true when you’re touching your stomach and you’re arm’s is fully extended? Leave space in front of you to lay in the razor without compromising grip and unless your Michael Phelps you’re probably working with 18”-24” of leather. OR, attach your strop appropriately so tension comes from pulling slightly down and away. That tilt makes a world of difference in the travel of each pass. #10) Let the strop flex with the movement of the blade. It still needs to be taunt but you follow the contours of your face when you shave, right. So let the strop contour to the blade. #11) Leather is very bad for cutting edges. So don’t choke. Keeping moving in the direction you started or take a mulligan and start a new pass. #12) In the spirit of Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast + Fast is Fine but accuracy is final, a wet shave is zazen to its core. Passive mindfulness. The eradication of chaotic thought created when by contemplating completely irreconcilable truths simultaneously. Let’s be honest, cream from a can + multi blade disposables = faster, less stuff, zero up keepPlus it’s an unparalleled skincare routine.
Shaving, stropping, honing and sharpening are basically the same skill done on your face, against something slightly angled & relatively soft or pliable, the same thing again with a little friction heat from a round on canvas and/or aggregate and horizontally across a completely flat, ultra dense surface. Buy yourself an assortment of cheap single & dbl bevel chisels, cutlery, cutting tools, hunting knives, etc… & hand files, stones (ceramic, composite,
diamond grit, “Arkansas” stone, carbon synthetic etc) anything that’s not mechanical or creates filings. There are even little rubber wedges and adjustable bases if you’re feeling especially nervous. Whatever you need to do to get confident and comfortable keeping the same angle on all four strokes of a pass while maintaining uniform pressure the length of the cutting edge. It’s crucial to be totally comfortable and in control b/c the bevel edge of western razors is 7-10*. That’s half the standard for sashimi blades. Forged German steel is standard at 22*, approximately what you get if you shove a matchbook under a kitchen knife. Now throw away the matches and drop the angle by 2/3rds.
This is all anecdotal but #1) The blade must have rested for at least a couple days. If you’re not taking at least passes your just playing with it. If the cutting edge hasn’t fully dried the burr won’t have fully separated so the benefits will be minimized. 40-60 passes on 2” wide tanned bison is my baseline. Maybe a few warm ups on canvas when it’s close to needing to go on a stone. #2) Correct, consistent tension has to come solely from your non dominant hand. Holding the strop and handling the razor have to be completely disconnected. #3) The strop must always be flat so that the bevel edge is uniform. #4) A 4 stroke pass is next level skill so unless you’re ambidextrous just stick with the basic up & back. #5) The strop must be anchored so that when pull on it there’s rotation or twist. You inevitably you’ll shift your weight, change up your grip… if the strop wracks you’re starting over #6) The cutting edge must be in the same relative position as when shaving, that one should be self apparent #7) At the same time, stropping is about heat and friction so a relaxed grip is best. Pressure should come from a single point source: your thumb #8) Given these things your hands and arms need to be at a comfortable working height so you’re not wasting effort simple holding it together. For most people that’s somewhere past 90* bend at the elbow. #9) Uniformity is the inherent value of repetition. If something has to be done 60x they all need to be the same or you wouldn’t need to do so many. You must have the same degree of sensitivity and control at each end of the pass. Can you say that is true when you’re touching your stomach and you’re arm is fully extended? Leave space in front of you to lay in the razor without compromising grip and unless your Michael Phelps you’re probably working with 18”-24” of leather. OR, attach your strop appropriately so tension comes from pulling slightly down and away. That tilt makes a world of difference in the travel of each pass. #10) Let the strop flex with the movement of the blade. It still needs to be taunt but you follow the contours of your face when you shave, right. So let the strop contour to the blade. #11) Leather is very bad for cutting edges. So don’t choke. Keeping moving in the direction you started or take a mulligan and start a new pass. #12) In the spirit of Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast + Fast is Fine but accuracy is final, a wet shave is zazen to its core. Passive mindfulness. The eradication of chaotic thought created when by contemplating completely irreconcilable truths simultaneously. Plus it’s an unparalleled skincare routine.
Shaving, stropping, honing and sharpening are basically the same skill done on your face, against something slightly angled & relatively soft or pliable, the same thing again with a little friction heat from a round on canvas and/or aggregate and horizontally across a completely flat, ultra dense surface. Buy yourself an assortment of cheap single & dbl bevel chisels, cutlery, cutting tools, hunting knives, etc… & hand files, stones (ceramic, composite,
diamond grit, “Arkansas” stone, carbon synthetic etc) anything that’s not mechanical or creates filings. There are even little rubber wedges and adjustable bases if you’re feeling especially nervous. Whatever you need to do to get confident and comfortable keeping the same angle on all four strokes of a pass while maintaining uniform pressure the length of the cutting edge. It’s crucial to be totally comfortable and in control b/c the bevel edge of western razors is 7-10*. That’s half the standard for sashimi blades. Forged German steel is standard at 22*, approximately what you get if you shove a matchbook under a kitchen knife. Now throw away the matches and drop the angle by 2/3rds.
Don’t forget leather requires routine maintenance too; it’s function is aligning the burrs at the bleeding edge of high carbon steel and compacting it as much as possible. You’re literally buffing it. Usually you polish and oil leather to it more dense and non porous for protection. That makes for a terrible strop. Keep it clean but without some pile it’s not effective. Think car wax: applicator can be loaded up with product (like a flap wheel or grinder {gasp} for restoration, polishing with a hard or tightly woven pad + abrasive to make the surface uniform by removing material, buffing is finer & more superficial using mopheads w/o abrasives to make a gleaming finished surface. In the 12-15yrs since switching from a WWII dual edge to straighta from 1860’s-late 1930s) the single best tip on stropping is “Listen for it to sing”. But that might ring true for me b/c I cook. A razor is roughly the size of very light paring knife but has the benefit of an adjustable ballast. Cutlery is much harder than vintage steel and 6”, 8”, 12” full tang knives (stamped or forged) that are >2” at the shoulder are beasts by comparison. How would your razor hold up in the dishwasher? Everything metal is crap now b/c of all the metallurgical innovations made so we could increase weapons manufacture and b/c will use ore mined literally anywhere) If you can make 4 stroke passes at varying bevels holding both tools w/ HRC of >60 loose in your hands I promise stropping, honing and sharpening will flow. That ringing is audible verification you’re at the correct pressure, tension, tilt & angle. If you aren’t confident in stropping because your seeing oxidation or the gleam below the bevel edge is gone all you need is Wenol and some q-tips. If you feel like you can’t maintain the cutting edge or the blade is gliding over your skin but not removing hair sufficiently then the razor is either flat out dull or more likely it’s your shaving soap. The best way to asses the cutting edge is your fingernails. Lightly tap the edge against your thumbnail in several places from the heel to the point. Does it leave a divet? A vague mark that’s kind of cloudy like a white bruise? Does it bounce off slightly? The correct answer is: it feels sticky. To identify defects or variations, curl your other 4 finger in like your evaluating a manicure and tap using the the length of the edge across all 4 fingers. You can still get a lousy shave even from a razor in pristine condition w/ bad soap. Avoid stearic acid based products, brands that whip easily, feel viscous or anything that requires more than 1 application to make a full pass. Shaving soap isnt supposed to wash your face, razor or brush. Beating it into a lather is along the lines of stiffening egg whites and the lather should be the same standard as frothed milk: it should hang off the spoon (or brush in case) when you turn it upside down. It needs to be fluffy but lasting to lift your hair away your skin & hold it upright. Facial hair is deeply anchored & a remarkably stiff monofilament, spaced far apart and grows in no discernible pattern. Shaving soaps purpose is lift and separate so the razor can catch an edge as close to the skin as possible. Mama Bear makes the best soap on the market for my money. Other than that metal is metal, there’s nothing irreparable short of chipping it so get after it. For all intent & purpose stropping & honing are the same thing (what’s the textured stick with a handle in your knife block that nobody uses called?). Learning to work on a stone & stropping go hand in hand. But either one can totally ruin the other. Buy yourself an assortment of cheap single & dbl bevel chisels, cutlery, cutting tools, hunting knives, etc… & hand files, stones (ceramic, composite,
diamond grit, “Arkansas” stone, carbon synthetic etc) anything that’s not mechanical or creates filings. There are even little rubber wedges and adjustable bases if you’re feeling especially nervous. Whatever you need to do to get confident and comfortable keeping the same angle on all four strokes of a pass while maintaining uniform pressure the length of the cutting edge. It’s crucial to be totally comfortable and in control b/c the bevel edge of western razors is 7-10*. That’s half the standard for sashimi blades. Forged German steel is standard at 22*, approximately what you get if you shove a matchbook under a kitchen knife. Now throw away the matches and drop the angle by 2/3rds.

 

[rhgg2]

So I applied the lessons I've been learning from honing, which is to massively reduce the pressure on the spine, just barely enough to hold the spine flat, and drastically increase the torque. I am kind of flabbergasted. I just shaved off a 3k edge and it felt like my usual finished edges.

 

[bmiller3230]

I think the above suggestions are all good. Keeping the blade on the strop is paramount through the entire motion--don't lift it off when turning, turn on the spine. Until you've gotten that, and a consistent angle and pressure on both sides, you have nothing. And if you lift while turning, you are destined to sink the blade into your strop at some point.

Form over speed at this stage of the game

I would add, you want to hear the same sound from the blade when stropping both fore and aft.