Why didn't they just find another supplier for tallow and keep the original, much loved formulation? Their explanation doesn't seem to make sense - unless they don't want to admit bowing to vegan pressure?There is a reformulation happening across the board with European (including British) traditional shaving soaps since Pentesodium Pentetate was fully outlawed by the EU in December 2023. Tabac were first with what I call the "2024-style formulation"* back in 2021 but that formulation still included the offending ingredient and so I presumed that Tabac would eventually replace with Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate and leave the formula pretty much as is ... which is exactly what has happened.
2021
Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Potassium Laurate, Sodium Laurate, Glycerin, Aqua (Water), Parfum (Fragrance), Lauric Acid, Limonene, Linalool, Hydroxycitronellal, CI 77891, Isoeugenol, Pentasodium Pentetate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Citronellol, Coumarin, Benzyl Alcohol, Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone, Geraniol, Benzyl Salicylate, Cinnamyl Alcohol, Citral, Eugenol
2024
Potassium Stearate, Sodium Stearate, Potassium Laurate, Sodium Laurate, Aqua (Water), Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Palm Kernel Acid, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Potassium Palm Kernelate, Limonene, Hydroxycitronellal, CI 77891, Linalool, Citronellol, Coumarin, Alpha-Isomethyl-ionone, Benzyl Salicylate, Geraniol, Cinnamyl Alcohol, Isoeugenol, Benzyl Alcohol, Citral, Eugenol, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium Iminodisuccinate
... everything after Parfum is minimal. Hallmarks of what I call the "2024-style formulation" are a stearate-first (or second) approach and citing "potassium laurate" and "sodium laurate" pretty much thereafter.
So, practically the same formulation and that mailshot is quite simply nonsense! It's the same, silly old (bull)goose!
The 2021 formulation was and still is absolutely stellar and quite frankly as good if not better than the older formulation. They are right in that it is (now?) on a par with the likes of Floris or any of the London Cartel because they have also moved over to this type of formulation ... although the Brits do seem to like a palmate-first approach which is basically this formulation with palmate tacked on the front. I say now, because it's rather the other way around - Tabac was first in 2021 with the rest of the market following thereafter.
Fans of Speick now have a sneak preview of how their soap ingredients will read from now on since the existing formulation pretty much follows Tabac (2021).
Tabac 2024 Reformulation
- Thread starter Beefdrippings
- Start date
Why didn't they just find another supplier for tallow and keep the original, much loved formulation? Their explanation doesn't seem to make sense - unless they don't want to admit bowing to vegan pressure?
There's a couple of factors I myself look out for:
- Which oils / fatty acids are in the mix?
- Which lyes were used?
- Are there sources of oils which contain unsaponifiable components?
- Do soap makers rely on compounds like moisturisers or surfactants to accomplish whatever?
Next up are palmitic and oleic acid, and here's where things get difficult. You can think of these two fatty acids as 'handicapped' stearic acid. Thick and heavy too, but slightly less so in a way that's hard to describe. Lather becomes a bit more supple and manageable as a consequence if you add these in, and shavers tend to like this quite a bit. Now, the cheapest source is... (drumroll)... tallow. There are some cheap alternatives (olive oil, palm oil) but the ratios of these fatty acids are off in these products, and shavers notice this. Hence the bitching when a product is reformulated to remove the tallow. It's not exactly easy to approximate the original composition! Now based on some numbers I found I suspect cocoa butter might actually be a good drop-in replacement for tallow (with some tweaking), but that stuff's bloody expensive. Or you could just mix the pure fatty acids together into whatever ratio you like, but that too is not as cheap as simply buying a few drums of the oils themselves which are practically free of charge in comparison.
So soap makers have to compromise a bit here with their recipes, and this causes shaver preference to go all over the place. Just to keep matters interesting, of course. And in case an artisan soap maker is considering a new recipe: just cocoa, coconut, and stearic acid (or palm), please. I'd be interested in trying that. There's really no need to add in all the magical oils and fats once you understand what the mainstay components accomplish.
Lyes then: mix of potassium and sodium lyes. Pure potassium lye creates a soap which is too soft; pure sodium one which is too hard. Depending on how soft the manufacturer wants the product to be; and how readily it dissolves; the ratio can be altered.
Non-saponifiables: Shea butter is the most important source of these compounds. These do not saponify under the influence of hot lye, and so remain in the soap where they alter the properties of the soap in various ways. Unless you know what these compounds are, it can be anyone's guess as to what happens. Shea butter contains large cholesterol-like molecules; and so my guess is that they cause the lather to lose a bit of glide in acting like molecular pebbles. I don't really like lathers which are too slick, so shea is a compound I tend to welcome in my soaps. But that certainly doesn't mean everyone else does. I miss old Institut Karité, now gone forever... fortunately I have plenty of Pré de Provence tins sitting in my cupboard ;-).
The final trick a soap maker has up their sleeve is to simply resort to extra ingredients to achieve a desired effect. Mostly this will be a surfactant, but it can also be a humectant, or an emulsifier, or a smoothing agent, or whatever. There are many different compounds to choose from. Apart from a chelating agent to capture wayward calcium ions (= water hardness) I tend not to like these as manufacturers tend to go overboard with the amount, resulting in a lather which is usually too slick which I don't like shaving with. Musgo Real soap is like that, alas. Acca Kappa soap on the other hand uses such compounds rather sparingly, resulting in a product I find very gentle and pleasurable to use.
But these days, I am no longer on the active lookout for new products. I now earn sufficient income to stock up on stuff I like. Even with those products it's not always a guarantee I end up BBS, there's always some natural variation. Occasionally I try out something I encounter at an unexpected outlet, but invariably it's crappy stuff only fit for a body soap. A nice body soap, I'll give the maker that, but not a proper shave soap.
Thank you, very helpful.
I recently finished a puck of Tabac Veggie.
I’m now back to the tallow version. For me I much prefer the veggie.
I have two or three more tallow pucks and will likely PIF/sell them.
I’m now back to the tallow version. For me I much prefer the veggie.
I have two or three more tallow pucks and will likely PIF/sell them.
Now that we've taken a deep dive into the soap ingredients topic, with expert chemists and soap makers teaching us a few things, I thought I lay out the specifics of the example that prompted my earlier post. (Though this is about bath and not shaving soap, I find much the same situation with both.) I used French Pre de Provence bath soap for many years, but in the post covid era its price has more than doubled and I've looked for less expensive and easier to find alternatives that I find are similar. One of these is called Allaffia Good Soap. This comes in many fragrances, some seemingly intended to imitate PdP, though not as many as PdP itself (which has over 40 iirc), is less than half the price of PdP, and is made in the USA. Both are hard, triple milled soaps, good for the bath, probably not so good for shaving.
Here you can see that the main ingredients of the two brands are the same. Time will tell if I like the Allaffia as much, but they seem pretty much the same so far.
Ingredients of Pre de Provence 250g Soap (Coconut):
Sodium Palmate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Water, Fragrance, Glycerin, Palm Acid, Sodium Chloride, Palm Kernel Acid, Shea Butter, Titanium Dioxide, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium Edta, Sodium Hydroxide, Cinnamyl Alcohol, Amyl Cinnamyl Alcohol
Pre de Provence 150g Soap (unscented):
Sodium Palmate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Water, Glycerin, Sodium Chloride, Shea Butter, Citric Acid, Sodium Hydroxide , Tocopherol, Vegetable Oil
Ingredients of Allaffia Good Soap 140g (Coconut):
Sodium Palmate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Water, Glycerin, Sodium Gluconate, Titanium Dioxide, Fragrance, Palm Acid, Shea Butter, Coconut Oil, Palm Kernel Acid, Goat Milk
Allaffia Good Soap 140g (Fragrance Free):
Sodium Palmate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Water, Glycerin, Sodium Gluconate, Palm Acid, Shea Butter, Coconut Oil, Sodium Chloride, Palm Kernel Acid, Titanium Dioxide, Iron Oxides
Here you can see that the main ingredients of the two brands are the same. Time will tell if I like the Allaffia as much, but they seem pretty much the same so far.
Ingredients of Pre de Provence 250g Soap (Coconut):
Sodium Palmate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Water, Fragrance, Glycerin, Palm Acid, Sodium Chloride, Palm Kernel Acid, Shea Butter, Titanium Dioxide, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium Edta, Sodium Hydroxide, Cinnamyl Alcohol, Amyl Cinnamyl Alcohol
Pre de Provence 150g Soap (unscented):
Sodium Palmate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Water, Glycerin, Sodium Chloride, Shea Butter, Citric Acid, Sodium Hydroxide , Tocopherol, Vegetable Oil
Ingredients of Allaffia Good Soap 140g (Coconut):
Sodium Palmate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Water, Glycerin, Sodium Gluconate, Titanium Dioxide, Fragrance, Palm Acid, Shea Butter, Coconut Oil, Palm Kernel Acid, Goat Milk
Allaffia Good Soap 140g (Fragrance Free):
Sodium Palmate, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Water, Glycerin, Sodium Gluconate, Palm Acid, Shea Butter, Coconut Oil, Sodium Chloride, Palm Kernel Acid, Titanium Dioxide, Iron Oxides
Wow, what a thread! 
The chemistry makes my hair hurt! 
I’ve noticed a couple of things in these discussions I find amusing.
1. In many products there is very little correlation between price and quality—some, but less than you might think. It’s a natural human bias to equate higher price with higher quality, but it’s a pretty tenuous relationship, and marketing (psychology) has a huge effect here. If a company has good marketing they’ll have higher margins than a company who does not play that game as well, the products being pretty similar in cost to manufacture. I think our resident chemist made that point very well.
2. The label on the soap makes absolutely no difference. Tabac tallow and tabac non-tallow are completely different products, and should be evaluated as such. The YMMV factor in this game is so very wide, comparing tallow Tabac to non-tallow Tabac is kind of silly, they’re different products. As we see in this thread some LOVE the one HATE the other, and some are happy with both. I think you should approach it as comparing Tabac to PdP, just let them stand on their own and use what you prefer.
3. I think the argument about tallow vs non-tallow is kind of silly because there are great soaps on both sides. I tend to prefer tallow soaps in general, but I don’t think it’s because tallow is superior in any way. Having been recently introduced to current production Haslinger and S.V. I’ve been blown away by both! Tabac tallow and Cella are two of my favorite soaps, but Haslinger and S.V. Are right up there with them! So when my 3 pucks of tallow Tabac are gone, I’ll try the new Tabac. But I’ll just be deciding if I like it—or not! If I like it, fine! If I don’t, well I like S.V. So no big deal. It’s YMMV. For example I’m not as impressed with PdP as many others are, I find it unremarkable, so use what you like.
4. I think it’s also sad when a favorite is discontinued, and I am irritated by the constant tweaking of formulae, but when it happens you move on. I’m neither loyal to Tabac so I will “want” to like the new formulations, nor will I gripe that they got rid of tallow. I’ll just see if I like the new product or if I don’t. If it strikes me as like PdP, I’ll PIF it. If it’s like S.V. I’ll be blissfully happy.
The chemistry makes my hair hurt! I’ve noticed a couple of things in these discussions I find amusing.1. In many products there is very little correlation between price and quality—some, but less than you might think. It’s a natural human bias to equate higher price with higher quality, but it’s a pretty tenuous relationship, and marketing (psychology) has a huge effect here. If a company has good marketing they’ll have higher margins than a company who does not play that game as well, the products being pretty similar in cost to manufacture. I think our resident chemist made that point very well.
2. The label on the soap makes absolutely no difference. Tabac tallow and tabac non-tallow are completely different products, and should be evaluated as such. The YMMV factor in this game is so very wide, comparing tallow Tabac to non-tallow Tabac is kind of silly, they’re different products. As we see in this thread some LOVE the one HATE the other, and some are happy with both. I think you should approach it as comparing Tabac to PdP, just let them stand on their own and use what you prefer.
3. I think the argument about tallow vs non-tallow is kind of silly because there are great soaps on both sides. I tend to prefer tallow soaps in general, but I don’t think it’s because tallow is superior in any way. Having been recently introduced to current production Haslinger and S.V. I’ve been blown away by both! Tabac tallow and Cella are two of my favorite soaps, but Haslinger and S.V. Are right up there with them! So when my 3 pucks of tallow Tabac are gone, I’ll try the new Tabac. But I’ll just be deciding if I like it—or not! If I like it, fine! If I don’t, well I like S.V. So no big deal. It’s YMMV. For example I’m not as impressed with PdP as many others are, I find it unremarkable, so use what you like.
4. I think it’s also sad when a favorite is discontinued, and I am irritated by the constant tweaking of formulae, but when it happens you move on. I’m neither loyal to Tabac so I will “want” to like the new formulations, nor will I gripe that they got rid of tallow. I’ll just see if I like the new product or if I don’t. If it strikes me as like PdP, I’ll PIF it. If it’s like S.V. I’ll be blissfully happy.
Over the years I had used many pucks of tallow Tabac. I knew a sympathetic druggist during the dark ages of shaving, and he knew where to get it. Since I have used a couple of pucks of the '21 version and it's great. Just as good. When I need to get more, I will try this new version. I am sure it will be great as well. They know how to make shaving soap.
As stated by others, things change, we move on.
As stated by others, things change, we move on.
The bath soap I discussed in painful detail above is the only PdP product I used. In the EU it probably will remain a standard item, but here in the US there are clones for less than half the price, which is still a lot more than the average person pays for soap. OTOH, hard shaving soap has now become relatively uncommon in the US, and I don't think there are many comparable to the classic European ones you list. Some of the cheapest are made in China. On the plus side, we have many "artisan" makers. But I've found nothing like Tabac or Haslinger that's US made.Wow, what a thread!
1. In many products there is very little correlation between price and quality—some, but less than you might think. It’s a natural human bias to equate higher price with higher quality, but it’s a pretty tenuous relationship, and marketing (psychology) has a huge effect here. If a company has good marketing they’ll have higher margins than a company who does not play that game as well, the products being pretty similar in cost to manufacture. I think our resident chemist made that point very well.
2. The label on the soap makes absolutely no difference. Tabac tallow and tabac non-tallow are completely different products, and should be evaluated as such. The YMMV factor in this game is so very wide, comparing tallow Tabac to non-tallow Tabac is kind of silly, they’re different products. As we see in this thread some LOVE the one HATE the other, and some are happy with both. I think you should approach it as comparing Tabac to PdP, just let them stand on their own and use what you prefer.
3. I think the argument about tallow vs non-tallow is kind of silly because there are great soaps on both sides. I tend to prefer tallow soaps in general, but I don’t think it’s because tallow is superior in any way. Having been recently introduced to current production Haslinger and S.V. I’ve been blown away by both! Tabac tallow and Cella are two of my favorite soaps, but Haslinger and S.V. Are right up there with them! So when my 3 pucks of tallow Tabac are gone, I’ll try the new Tabac. But I’ll just be deciding if I like it—or not! If I like it, fine! If I don’t, well I like S.V. So no big deal. It’s YMMV. For example I’m not as impressed with PdP as many others are, I find it unremarkable, so use what you like.
4. I think it’s also sad when a favorite is discontinued, and I am irritated by the constant tweaking of formulae, but when it happens you move on. I’m neither loyal to Tabac so I will “want” to like the new formulations, nor will I gripe that they got rid of tallow. I’ll just see if I like the new product or if I don’t. If it strikes me as like PdP, I’ll PIF it. If it’s like S.V. I’ll be blissfully happy.
I get that some are ready to easily move on from Tallow Tabac. I, however, am in the other camp- once my stock of Tallow Tabac is gone, from then on the brand is dead to me.
I understand that companies can/will do with their product as they deem necessary. I can/will express my displeasure by no longer purchasing said product. In the long run, it doesn't matter to them, but to me, it's a matter of principle.
marty
I understand that companies can/will do with their product as they deem necessary. I can/will express my displeasure by no longer purchasing said product. In the long run, it doesn't matter to them, but to me, it's a matter of principle.
marty
I am now, finally, about to use 2021 formula non-tallow Tabac for the first time. Then the latest formulas of Haslinger and Proraso are in the queue (among other things), so 2024 formula Tabac is way off on the horizon for me. The 2021 Tabac has been open and airing out in the classic jar for some time but had the classic strong Tabac fragrance when first unwrapped. I don't find a lot of difference in the non-tallow versions of these classic European soaps, and I'm hoping 2021 Tabac is no exception, but we'll see.
Thanks for posting the ingredients! I’m going to be purchasing a refill soon and will be interesting to see which version I receive. The original and 2021 are both fine for me and I expect the 2024 will en as well.
I too thank you for that information. Pentasodium Penetate, long commonly used in cosmetics as a "chelating" or stabilizing agent, apparently is considered a "reproductive toxin" by the EU, I assume meaning, potentially bad for pregnant women. So be it. Meanwhile, I have finally shaved with 2021 Tabac for the first time (soaps have to wait their turn in my queue) and agree that it is stellar and as good if not better than the old formulation. Same strong floral fragrance that needs to be aired out, same if not better thick lather produced almost immediately, and same smooth aftershave face feel. I'm going to listen to some George Harrison (who became a big Tabac fan when the Beatles first played Hamburg) to celebrate.
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