Surgical after coticule?

[username]

So I have a coticule and I absolutely love it. Its nice and hard and cuts fast too. It produces super smooth shaves. However, I recently acquired a surgical black/hard black arkie. It is a vintage one and I really couldn't tell you how old it is. It is also somewhat translucent as light will shine through it although not much like a true trans ark because it is black.

I used it after my coticule because it is definitely finer than my coti but it just seems to not really do anything to the edge. I did about 200 laps with sewing machine oil and it just doesn't seem to do anything. Should I use a higher grit stone before I go to the ark?

 

[Gamma]

Did you lap it?

How big is the Ark?

 

[Alum of Potash]

Hello and welcome to B&B. It would be interesting to hear of your progression leading up to the coticule. If it produces a super smooth edge already, why move further? I don't think a worn vintage black Ark is going to contribute to sharpness afterwards, if that is what's needed.

 

[username]

The ark is 4x2 I did lap it as it was NOS and wasn't flat. I lapped it up to 1200 grit.

I use just the coticule for regular touchups and what not (with our without slurry depending on the work needed being done) and if I need to reset the bevel then I use my 1200 Diamond plate. I figured that I could use the ark to smoothen it out even further after the cuticule.

 

[oakeshott]

When you say it isn't doing anything, how are testing that? Shave test? HHT? Loupe? TPT?

 

[username]

Shave test. I use the others but when I shave it really doesn't feel any different. When I do the HHT though it gives either one of two results. Either it fails miserably or the hair will fall away silently and I have to look and make sure that it actually cut in astonishment. I actually think that now I have figured out the problem. I think I just needed to break in the stone. I took some knives to it and that has smoothed out the surface alot. I will be doing a shave test later as I need to shave before work so I will let you guys know how that goes. Another problem might be that normally when I shave I only have 24 hours worth of growth. However, the only time that I have shaved after the ark is yesterday and I hadn't shaved for a few days. Today I will shave again and let you guys know how that goes. Honestly I probably just need more time to learn the stone though.

 

[PapaFish]

I have been watching lots of auctions for Arkansas stones. I have seen lots of black stones, some called "black translucent", some called "surgical black", some called "black hard", some called "true black", some just called "black", I think I am missing at least a couple names. I realize that a name is just a name, so one company could call a stone a "black", and another call the same stone a "surgical black", and another call it a "black hard". Natural Whetstones uses "black translucent" as a name for it's best finishers, and calls it's step down from that simply "black" and says that it imparts a surgical edge on a blade. I have been hesitant to buy several eBay "surgical black" stones (despite some of them being in really cool cases) because I have no way of telling if they are going to be good finishers. You say yours has translucency, which is a good sign, but it's possible that you have more of a "black" and not a "black translucent". This could mean that your stone will finish roughly on par with the coticule.

This is coming from a guy who has never had a black, black translucent, or any other finishing quality Arkansas stone, so please take my comments with a grain of salt. I look forward to hearing your 24 hours of growth opinion on the stone.

 

[Sando]

Not long ago, I had a surgical black arkie that was harder than Chuck Norris' fists. Black as night and really cool to look at. I used her as a finisher after my coticule, mostly with oil but a few times with lather, too. I did notice an uptick in sharpness. But in an effort at keeping things simple, I just decided to stay with the coticule and film finishes, as needed.

 

[blackhhawk]

Wait, you're saying when doing the HHT it just slices through the hair silently to the point where it's hard to tell that it even happened? Sounds like you have an incredibly sharp edge...

 

[Gamma]

2-300 laps isn't unusual, on a 8-10" stone.
Your 4x2 stone is going to increase the lap count considerably.

Keep at it - eventually, I think you might be surprised at what that stone is capable of.
Without knowing more - its hard to say one way or another what 'zone' it falls in to, but a vintage hard Ark can be as hard/fine as a modern Trans or SB Ark.

 

[username]

Wait, you're saying when doing the HHT it just slices through the hair silently to the point where it's hard to tell that it even happened? Sounds like you have an incredibly sharp edge...

A bit of an exaggeration. The first time I tested it after the arkie it did that and normally after the coticule it will do a little ping but that time there was no sound and the hair didn't pop off like it normally will it just kinda fell off and laid there. It's definitely sharp but the smoothness was lacking. I will say though that I did my shave test yesterday and It was pleasant.

Gamma- Thats what I am thinking too with the lap counts. I was thinking everybody has these numbers for lap counts but they don't say what size stone that correlates too. So if 8x3 is 2-300 then 4x2 should equal at least 4-600...good thing I have today off and nothing to do but drink some beers and hone some razors.

Papa Fish- I too have been seeing alot of auctions for arks of supposed names and qualities. The one I bought was really cheap. Like so cheap you would have to pick up your jaw from the ground if it told you. I was suspicious but figured hey with the price, if it goes wrong I got a nice paper weight that I paid a paper weight price for. However, I turned out well. I read that Jewelers will use the surgical blacks for testing gold as the gold will leave a trail that is easily visible on the black and yet the stone won't damage the finish of the jewelry. I went to a jeweler yesterday and asked if he had one I could compare mine too and the one he pulled out was very similiar to mine. Same size and fineness too only with alot of gold rubbed on to it.

Sando- yeah this thing is dense. Densest rock I have ever held. Smoothest rock I have ever felt too.

All in all I think all I need to do is 1) Break in the stone some more and 2) Give it some time to learn the rock and what works best with it.

 

[Brianskeet]

I think you are right on your Arkie. I have a 3x8 trans arkie that produced some really unfriendly edges. I was about to swear off Ark edges till folks here told me to sharpen up a bunch of knives to further smooth the stone. I had lapped it to 2000 grit wet paper, but that was not nearly enough. Several knives later it is a much better stone.

 

[oakeshott]

Not long ago, I had a surgical black arkie that was harder than Chuck Norris' fists. Black as night and really cool to look at. I used her as a finisher after my coticule, mostly with oil but a few times with lather, too. I did notice an uptick in sharpness. But in an effort at keeping things simple, I just decided to stay with the coticule and film finishes, as needed.

Sando,
The Society for the Abolition of Ignoring Vintage Arkies (SAIVA) is insisting that you send that SB to me for placement in a good home. Simplicity is no excuse for cruelty to novaculite.
Oakeshott
Chairman of SAIVA

 

[username]

Yeah thanks guys. I got it broken to the point where I think it needs to be (its starting to be shiny and really really smooth). I just used some knives that were cheap and put lots of pressure on them and an hour later and no feeling in my arms it was good to go. I swear if I hadn't heard good things about arkies being worth all this work I would have thrown it in the lake. Anyways I got really comfortable and started honing on it. I don't know how many laps I did but I am guessing close to 1000.

I went to shave with it and it didn't really feel all that different maybe a little sharper and a little smoother but not worth the effort (all going with the grain). I normally do 3 passes (wtg,xtg, and atg). So next I did xtg and noticed that it was a little nicer than what normally xtg feels. But the real difference was noticed when I went atg. So freaking easy and smooth. Just a beautiful shave especially on the jawline where I normally have irritation and the lip wasn't too bad either. Oh yeah nothing but silent HHT's one right after the other.

 

[PapaFish]

So, in the end, considering the full three pass shave, was it worth the effort? It may come down to edge longevity ...

 

[username]

I will say that with a three pass shave and if the edge last for a decent amount of time (some say that the edge off an arkie will last longer than most other stones) than yes it is worth it. I have some old Pinaud a/s that I like to use to test a new edge. Depending on the amount of burn determines the quality of the shave. Todays was burn free and I have only had that sensation off of one other stone and that was the coticule that I used with oil instead of water. Its one of those sensations where your anticipate the burn so you kinda psych yourself out and then when you put on the a/s...nothing and yes that to me is the most rewarding feeling after a shave.

I will require alot more use from this stone to see if its truly worth it though. Depending on edge longevity will determine if I keep this stone in progression. Oh well it was only 10 bucks.

 

[dgrassey]

In my endless search for a better edge I took my blades to a Surgical Black Arkansas after my Naniwa 12K, about 100 laps. Followed that with a chromium paddle and a leather strap. It was popping arm hairs like crazy. We'll see how it shave later tonight.