Sticky Coti?

[mbrossar]

I'm working on learning the Unicot method on my coti. I'm watching, listening and feeling my coti talk to me. I know it's cutting because my slurry's turning grey. I can tell (I think) when I've moved up to fast because sometimes the edge starts pushing the liquid rather than undercutting it. Sometimes I add a stroke of slurry, sometimes a few half strokes gets me back on the road. The one feedback I get that I don't understand is sometimes my coti feels downright sticky, like it's grabbing at the blade. It's always in the latter stages either when the slurry is either very thin or I'm on just water. Pressure is always very light. I'd swear that the blade's riding flat and even on the hone throughout the stroke. I see that Bart talks about draw in the advanced feedback section on coticule.be, but I don't see what to make of the feedback. I'm not even sure if he's referring to periodic significant draw or just a general draw like you'd feel on a particular kind of strop.

Any thoughts what it's trying to tell me?

 

[gary haywood]

i've got a coticule that does similar thing, by draw it feels like a jittering in certain parts more towards the end of the stroke to me even more so on water .i just hone and once the hone has rested for a minute or two i rewet and the hone is smooth again is yours. I think its the abrasion of back and forth strokes and may be garnets just poking throught the surface or just a strong draw that has built up through excessive laps . i find the draw eases of at certan points..during honing. i some coticules that feel like glass all the way through with out any draw at all. its weird.

 

[wdwrx]

This is fascinating. I have experienced exactly the same effect. I attributed that to some type of condition on the edge though. My assumption being that it was an area of the bevel that required a bit more attention. I've tried flipping the hone end for end, doing a stroke on different areas of the hone and giving it a quick rub with a DMT, and I find that the feeling of grabbiness appears to follow the razor. It also seems to me to diminish to nothing with a bit of focused honing on the section that gives this grabby feeling.

Gary, if I understand right, this is the attribute you give to resting the hone?
I may need to re-evalute some of my assumption... I don't want to be chasing ghosts. In some respects, I thought that the effect I believe the OP has described was the "feed-back" and I was trying to corollate that diminishingness to the refinement of the edge.... But, like the OP, I don't understand the effect either. I noticed the effect on both my cotis, did you notice it on the Dressante?

 

[wdwrx]

OK... disregard my last post... I just sent an hour and a half chasing that graby whatever it is.... somethings going on... but I don't know what... there is definatly something in the blade that's acting differently. I tried to make that feeling go away, and at times I thought I was chasing it, and then it would seem to move to different parts of the blade.... I'm even more confused now..

 

[Woodash]

OK... disregard my last post... I just sent an hour and a half chasing that graby whatever it is.... somethings going on... but I don't know what... there is definatly something in the blade that's acting differently. I tried to make that feeling go away, and at times I thought I was chasing it, and then it would seem to move to different parts of the blade.... I'm even more confused now..

Try a different blade? Maybe try adding a very small drop of dish soap to the wet hone to see if things change? Try distilled water (no - scratch that! ).

 

[heirkb]

I thought that stickiness is what you want. I was told that it means that the polish of the edge is even with the grit of the hone so it creates suction.

I'm pretty sure this feel is the exact reason so many people love the Naniwa 5k, which gives you loads of this stickiness (draw) once the edge is ready to move on...

 

[wdwrx]

Try a different blade? Maybe try adding a very small drop of dish soap to the wet hone to see if things change? Try distilled water (no - scratch that! ).

ya sure.... rub it in!

I owe this thread a debt of gratitude.... Playing around with the idea last night has helped me break through the dilucot "wall" I finally figured out what the heck i was doing wrong. Just goes to show, it pays to try different things.

 

[gary haywood]

OK... disregard my last post... I just sent an hour and a half chasing that graby whatever it is.... somethings going on... but I don't know what... there is definatly something in the blade that's acting differently. I tried to make that feeling go away, and at times I thought I was chasing it, and then it would seem to move to different parts of the blade.... I'm even more confused now..

the drassante i found after so many laps there was a grabby ness towards the end of the x stroke, i have found my burton on hybrid side to be very sticky at times so much so its like a magnet,yet the twin side to my hybrid side has no feed back no stick y ness or grabbing just smooth as silk all the way through. yes at the final stage on water i find jitery ness or sticking on my hybrid . once dryed rested and rewet its like honing on smooth non stickines. i also had a 8x3 some time ago whicjh was real jittery towards the end of my stroke . i did'nt care for it muchand at the time thought it was a fault, now i no its pritty normal. i think its the abrasion of doing back and forth strokes and garnets may be poking out of the surface causing a draw , i would'nt worry about it. my hybrid can get realy jittery then it can clam down some what and also disapear it realy does vary . somtimes i hone and there is no sticking at all god no's why.

 

[mbrossar]

I owe this thread a debt of gratitude.... Playing around with the idea last night has helped me break through the dilucot "wall" I finally figured out what the heck i was doing wrong. Just goes to show, it pays to try different things.

So, what did you find that helped you break through the wall?

 

[wdwrx]

ha! It was all in the pressure I was using. Bart was telling me to not be shy of applying a little pressure, and i thought I was doing that, but, it didn't seem to make much difference. What I did change was the way I was applying the pressure. I started to torque the razor down and into the hone during the stroke. Not hard or anything, just as if i was trying to shave a layer off the hone itself. Cut that bugger into the hone. Don't be shy. Hahahah
seriously though, it took me a very long time to overcome using too light a stroke. I kept wanting to go lighter and lighter, and that just led me further and further away. That bit of refocused pressure was enough to develop the keenness that I couldn't get.

An interesting thing to try is to use a fairly thick oil on your coti,(mineral or castor oil) the sensation brought about by the "sticktion" between the oil and the coti will give an example of the sensation you are looking for. There is a marked difference in the feel of oil vs water. You can feel it pull the edge into the hone and the counter-intuitive seeming increase in abrasion. Try to duplicate that same effect with water and the control you have over the edge.... and it might lead to a little insight like it did for me. The oil won't hurt your coti, and the edge coming off it is comparable to a well done edge with dilucot.

 

[mbrossar]

Thanks Chris. Are you still applying this much pressure when you're in the finishing stage? I thought at this point you should have a light touch. I’m just trying to figure out if I should try being more aggressive throughout the process or just through the dilution stage.

It sounds like the sticky sensation you are describing with the oil is similar to the sticky sensation I was getting with water that started this thread. It almost feels like, as was described earlier in this thread, like the blade is creating a vacuum against the hone and actually getting sucked to it. Are you saying that's an indication that the edge is at or very near where you want it or am I misreading this section?

 

[wdwrx]

whew.... I'm really not the guy to ask... I'm still just fumbling around in the dark.
Now comes learning to perform that balancing act to raise the keenness, when to use that extra pressure, and when to go lightly. Therin lies the Art of it, methinks

I guess in a way, the stickiness is over-powered by the heavier pressure, and becomes less noticable.....During finish I did try to go very light, somewhere in the range of 30 or so of my lightest, and I don't recall it being as much present.

I do think it's worthwhile to play around with the stone, try different things. The oil really opened my eyes because for the first few strokes, while the oil was deep on the stone, the draw down, and the raspy abrasion, surprised the hell outta me. Lather is worth a try, try super heavy slurrys, and super light slurrys, different razors... you know.
I do recommend the "down-stroke" as a valuable tool. As intended, it functions very well as a measure of your progress, invaluable when you are learning. I've tried now, with increased pressure, to see how fast I can bring it back ... and it helps to dial in your stroke for each particular razor. It does get easier to do the dirty deed, though I still can't help but cringe a bit every time I kill that hard won edge