Softer Japanese Naturals are for Razors too.

[alx gilmore]

Contrary to what some proponents postulate, softer japanese natural stones are fine for razors, and some will even excell over hard stones. I think that the age of 5+++ Jnat stones is past. Even the guy from Europe who for a couple of years pushed and pushed that only level 5+, 5++ and 5+++ were the only ones suitable for finishing razors is now pushing level 3, 4, 4.5 and 5 hardness razors on his Razor page. Finally he came around and saw the light.

It really does boil down to grit quality, both fineness and concentration. Cutting ability is and always has been the key to honing and sharpening. A level 5+++ lower quality stone can be composed of coarser grit particles but because those particles are not released in a slurry (the LV5+++ binds them in place) the bound up particles can mimic a finer grit particle dimension because only the exposed top of the particles touch the blade. Polishing the bevels surfaces has been thought to be in direct relation to a sharp edge. This is not necessarly true. The quality of the edge is more important than the beauty of the polish of the bevel.


Polished bevels can lead to polished edges if the bevel formation is true and flat so that the stone comes into contact with the actual edge where it falls off into space. This requires perfectly set bevels. A polished edge can be sharper than a matte finish or kasumi finish (kasumi is a word that describes the fuzzy apperance that objects take over hot ground), but how much is how much. If a much more finer polished edge is compromised, and the edge integrity through burnishing is a less tenacious edge with a shorter life, is it worth it. I have gotten level HHT-4 and 5 edges with just grit and no polishing and no clear water passes, and anyway HHT-3 & 4 edges shave just fine and HHT-5 is right next door. And I have shaved off those edges without re-honing ie.going back to the stone for 20 or more shaves.


The level LV5+ through 5+++ mostly Ozuku stones were a product offering that encouraged the use of alternate grit particles provided by Mikawa (Asano stamped) white nagura as a honing system for razors. This is just a system that uses base stones that are so hard that they are difficult and slow to use as base stones without the nagura particles on top. These high hardness base stones were further polished to provide a mirror like surface similar to an Arkansas stone, impervios to water. Very little abrasion occurs off a ultra hard stone.


I am not saying that this whole LV5+++ plus Mikawa nagura system is void as of today, but only that there is a whole slew of razor users that have gone beyond the level 5+++ stone system to discover that there is a whole range of alternate softer stones that will more quickly and efficently create, with some simple skills, perfectly good and acceptible edges for even the thoughest beards.

No one has yet even attempted to compete with Doc's endurance testing of the most tenacious of edges known to modern man, by providing 134 shaves, a heroic feat of one single persons skill in honing, maintaining and using this razor. I believe if I am not mistaken that he used a polished edge, but would like to learn more details. Nor do I wish to nullify the results of so many of the honemeisters found on this forum who over the years have perfected the polished blade technique, but only to call attention to alternate options.

The door is open,


Alx

 

[Puerco]

Great post, I always wondered about this, I only have one JNat (shuobudani) with botan, teniyou and meijiro nagura's and a tomo that's very easy to hone on and quite hard but Coticules are very soft and yet they give great edges so I never could imagine why a softer JNat wouldn't work for a razor so your post is most helpful.

 

[buca3152]

Nice post! You are right. Certain qualities of stones stand out to us and we jump on the bandwagon for that quality only although there are others just as or even more important.

 

[Acmemfg]

I suppose that is one righteously informative post. Fact being, it is certainly way detailed and out of my pay grade from a complexity standpoint.

I kind of have this outlook when it comes to honing my blades-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5cL-h3Pj1o

 

[jpcwon]

Great post, Alex! I am still a newb when it comes to JNATs, but I have found that softer stones can make great finishers as well. Take my Nakayama Maruichi Kamisori for example (before I sold it to Jeremy, "jkh"). This is an LV 4 stone that I originally bought as a pre-polisher. Well lo and behold, I found that I was able to take a razor from ~3-5k to final finish with just DMT slurry, and the edge was superb! It seemed that this stone was more versatile than my LV 5+++ Ozuku is. The Ozuku has its place, but I find myself gravitating more towards my softer LV 5- Kiita and LV5 Tomae Asagi, and the Ozuku is not getting as much use....

 

[Obiwan]

Great post Alex. For my personal experience--- I will say, I bought a softer jnat from you as one of my first stones. I ended up dismissing it from favor as I added more stones to the collection as I found better results with some of the harder ones I've picked up. That said, I picked it back up several months ago after having much more practice with jnats and found it very, very capable of producing tremendous edges. Also, I like the feel of a softer stone at times. IMO, so long as the users is mindful of what type of stone he is using, softer ones can be great too.

 

[Gamma]

Well - as documented as Docs post is, factually - other than the fact that it was documeted on an almost daily basis - it's not that groundbreaking of an event.
Remember - people never used to hone daily or weekly or monthly. Most straights owned by the common folk were honed approx 2x a year.
I have a custom from Brian B, I've had it a good long while, and I've not had to re-hone it. I'm not sure of the exact shave count but it's upwards of 120 and still going strong. IMO - long term service like that should be the rule and not the exception. Many people have had edges go 6 months and longer with regular use. My main issue with this is that I just like the feel of the edge when it's freshly honed. Somewhere around 12+ shaves I always want to bump the edge back up to 'new'.

Anyway - Alex, interesting post. I expect there will be incoming flak soon.

Note 1 - Softer stones, in and of themselves, are not necessarily 'better' - there are junk stones in all hardness categories.

Note 2 - Lets not forget that softer stones can be used with Mikawa Nagura also. Factually - they allow for a greater range of refinement, a significant (read:huge) increase in any stone's versatility, all while offering users the ability to fine-tune an edge to a degree that isn't possible any other way. Relying on the Honzan to carry the entire gamut of one's sharpening needs is a very nice concept but one that's short on scope. Can it be done? Sure - lots of things can be 'done'. People hone on all sorts of things all sorts of ways. Back in the 1800s someone invented a cast iron strop for pastes... People shave off Norton 8k stones all the time - so be it.
The thing with limiting ones approach is that I see it as a long-term counter productive mind-set. Some might find that doing so is simpler, but to me it's just a restrictive limitation.
The good news is that there is no competition at hand to determine who is right or wrong in a global sense. If someone is happy with what I consider to be underdone edges that's fine, I'll keep using a more complex method that allows an edge I find to be superior. This is also fine.

Note 3 - The low-grade super-hard stones I think you are referring to as 'mostly Ozukus' were, IMO, cheap end/scrap cuts for the most part. Sure - using Nagura with them allowed progress to be made but at the end of the day they were more like a marble plate than what one should consider to be a 'true' Awasedo. One gets what one pays for. Expecting a high-quality stone for 50 USD is a somewhat questionable mindset I think. Traditonally - the high-end super-hard stones were, and still are, offered as a final polisher for extremely accurate and uber refined edges on everything from scissors to scalpels. One concept I'd like to bring up is that just because a stone is very hard, does not mean it is short on quality. Realistically, there are very very good stones with a high abrasive particle density, and with good 'feel', that are also very hard. Rarely, if ever, are they a bargain though. They cost big, and for good reasons. With many things - it's fairly common where that last 5-10% of performance costs so very much more. I do agree that they are harder to use, and that their performance gains are often marginal, but I don't think they should be relegated as 'experts only' stones; i.e. I've never seen an 'experts only' Arkansas stone.

Note 4 - LV 4 stones can produce wicked nice edges.
For the most part, that effort can be surpassed by using a harder stone.
The $60k question remains, as always, 'do you need or want that level of performance?

 

[Brooksie967]

Alex did you get a boat load of soft stones in the mail or something?

All jokes aside, yeah softer stones can be great too. I'm thinking along the lines of my level 4ish nakayama maruichi that has gorgeous red salmon iromono. Its unfortunately only 40mm wide but really really delivers.

 

[cleanshaved]

Interesting indeed. Thanks Alex for the great post.
I have a Wakasa 4.5 and find it ( I ) can deliver a edge to match any that I have tried so far. that is not many due to my location.

I am contimplating trying a 5+ Jnat but this may just be me chasing the edge.

 

[SliceOfLife]

From what all the Japanese stone/knife guys I know say, hard stones can refine an edge finer, but that doesn't mean you can't finish a razor on a softer stone (note, not a SOFT stone, a softer stone). They are simply considered more suitable for other tasks. They are all in agreement though, that softer stones as a class of stone won't ever be able to give the highest level finish that harder stones can give a razor.

 

[Brooksie967]

From what all the Japanese stone/knife guys I know say, hard stones can refine an edge finer, but that doesn't mean you can't finish a razor on a softer stone (note, not a SOFT stone, a softer stone). They are simply considered more suitable for other tasks. They are all in agreement though, that softer stones as a class of stone won't ever be able to give the highest level finish that harder stones can give a razor.

Just like people finish on coticules which autoslurry (soft).

 

[Disburden]

I have a lv5+ Ozuku asagi that is so slow and hard that I struggle to put a good edge on it.
I actually stopped using it. Alex I'm with you.

 

[SliceOfLife]

What's the source of the stone? Was it sold as a razor hone?

 

[Steve56]

Alex, you're behind the times. Nakaoka-san is up to 5++++. Yep, four "+"

Softer natural stones are great. A soft fine stone is not as common as a hard fine stone though, so if you're shooting for fine, you usually get hard with it these days. But not always. The attached image is the back of a Nakayama sunashi suita that I lapped mostly because I could. The other side is quite hard, but this side is softer than a Naniwa Super Stone. I stopped using it at all with knives because it was to easy to gouge. It's a superb razor finisher, and works like a champ with clear water because it's so soft.

Fine or very fine stones that have the desirable attributes of softer stones have always been valued and expensive, and are usually vintage stones in today's marketplace or carefully selected. The real value of the true vintage stones I've tried is that although fine (sometimes very, very fine), they remained more usable than equally fine stones in the general marketplace today. They slurry more easily, don't glaze as easily, they cut well for their fineness, and the blade gets "traction" even with clear water. When you get those attributes in a stone that can finish a razor to the keenest edge, you have a gem no matter what vintage it is.

I too have a modern Ozuku (whatever) and the results are great but it is a royal PITA to use. It takes forever to get a slurry with a lot of pressure though a 1200 Atoma tames it pretty well. I have to recondition the surface after every use for good results. Workable, but if you like to hone, a better behaved stone is far more desirable, and once you've used one, you will look for them.

Cheers, Steve

 

[jkh]

Great post, Alex! I am still a newb when it comes to JNATs, but I have found that softer stones can make great finishers as well. Take my Nakayama Maruichi Kamisori for example (before I sold it to Jeremy, "jkh"). This is an LV 4 stone that I originally bought as a pre-polisher. Well lo and behold, I found that I was able to take a razor from ~3-5k to final finish with just DMT slurry, and the edge was superb! It seemed that this stone was more versatile than my LV 5+++ Ozuku is. The Ozuku has its place, but I find myself gravitating more towards my softer LV 5- Kiita and LV5 Tomae Asagi, and the Ozuku is not getting as much use....

Yep, that stone works great!

I happen to have another JNAT (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/287399-Nakayama-Kiita), which is also "soft" and provides really nice edges with little fuss.

 

[jkh]

Alex, you're behind the times. Nakaoka-san is up to 5++++. Yep, four "+"

Softer natural stones are great. A soft fine stone is not as common as a hard fine stone though, so if you're shooting for fine, you usually get hard with it these days. But not always. The attached image is the back of a Nakayama sunashi suita that I lapped mostly because I could. The other side is quite hard, but this side is softer than a Naniwa Super Stone. I stopped using it at all with knives because it was to easy to gouge. It's a superb razor finisher, and works like a champ with clear water because it's so soft.

Fine or very fine stones that have the desirable attributes of softer stones have always been valued and expensive, and are usually vintage stones in today's marketplace or carefully selected. The real value of the true vintage stones I've tried is that although fine (sometimes very, very fine), they remained more usable than equally fine stones in the general marketplace today. They slurry more easily, don't glaze as easily, they cut well for their fineness, and the blade gets "traction" even with clear water. When you get those attributes in a stone that can finish a razor to the keenest edge, you have a gem no matter what vintage it is.

I too have a modern Ozuku (whatever) and the results are great but it is a royal PITA to use. It takes forever to get a slurry with a lot of pressure though a 1200 Atoma tames it pretty well. I have to recondition the surface after every use for good results. Workable, but if you like to hone, a better behaved stone is far more desirable, and once you've used one, you will look for them.

Cheers, Steve

View attachment 384044

Mama mia! There sure are some sweet *** looking JNATs

 

[Disburden]

What's the source of the stone? Was it sold as a razor hone?

Maxim. Jns as a razor stone

 

[duderdo]

Interesting post, but I must say I'm a tad confused. It was my interpretation that a cheaper base stone (say an Ozuku) plus nagura was a cheaper alternative to the higher quality, albeit softer, base stones you mentioned. I have an Ozuku that cost $110 with tomo, and a full nagura set, minus koma, that cost $50 at the time (a few years back now). That's $160 to an incredible edge.

Now on to my point: I love the idea that we should challenge any dogma that exists in the world of natural stones and allow room for a competing idea that will open doors to new users, but I'm confused because these softer stones you mention, from what I've seen, are usually several hundred dollars more than my above example. Nakayama, Ohira, Okudo, and so on. When we compare cost, It stands to reason that of course Ozuku's aren't the best of the best, but budget wise they get the job done for a fraction of the price.

Are there stones I'm oblivious to that are soft, but fine, that don't cost $200+?

 

[Gamma]

Some stones from Ozuku are extremely pricey and compare identically to stones from any mine.

A lot of the theory posted above borders on the typical flavor-of-the-month stuff. Soft is the new hard. And so on.
You're correct - a lower end very hard stone will work wonderfully with Mikawa and Tomo Nagura usually. So will softer stones. Only the most soft stones become problematic with Nagura.
Generalized - Alex' claim is that softer stones work as well as harder stones and that using Mikawa Nagura is superfluous.
Part of the OP concerns aesthetics, and the other side of the coin relates to the whole 'LV5++++' craze that I'll not shed light on here.

Some softer stones cost less, others more. A lot of considerations go into the 'value' of a Jnat - not all of which focus on function.

Lets throw a monkey wrench into the gears.

A concept put forth by the Kyoto Whetstone Assn. is that all of the Jnats we use as whetstones are all basically as fine as each other.
They listed an abrasive-particle-size spread of 2-3µm, which was taken from a study done in the early 80s.
If that's accurate - then we only have soft and hard to deal with.

One basic theory is this; the harder stones release fewer particles when honing, and break down the slurried particles further. Therefore, the harder stones are more apt to deliver a finer edge. The softer stones, given their tendency to release a greater amount of fresh (more coarse) particles into the slurry, can't match the level of refinement that the harder stones are capable of.

Another theory is that because the shape of the particles is flatter, and they remove steel differently than other abrasives - that they are better able to refine edges to a degree that transcends a typical 'grit' rating.


One Issue I have with all of the above is that harder stones are generally more dense because the particles are smaller.
Another issue I have with the KWA's concept is that I regularly hone on a lot of different stones side by side. It appears to me that the slurry from any one of them can be markedly finer or more coarse than another. So either the theory is bogus and/or there's a critical component missing, or I'm nuts.

 

[Steve56]

Keith,

I've heard the grit/hard theory before and was inclined to think it is reasonable, but I have at least two stones that are as fine as my "Ozuku" but softer. The stone above is immensely soft and very, very fine, not as fine as the "Ozuku" but not that far off. It's soft enough to inspire me to try and scratch it with a fingernail even though the idea is silly.

So the question I have is how many exceptions does it take to disprove the idea? I don't doubt for an instant that hardness and fineness are in general closely linked. If they weren't you couldn't describe a stone with o new parameter like "level 5".

And you're right about real Okuzus likely being as good as any other, but they've been known to produce harder stones and that's likely being exploited by marketing to the "hard" people with stones with maybe not the best provenance.

i have to chuckle at myself a bit too, that hard "Ozuku" that I complain about now was greatly admired when I had less knowledge and bought it. My initial impression was "Huh, a hard black Arkansas that actually cuts."

Cheers, Steve