Soap lathering confusion

[Emanon]

Hi,

There may be an answer somewhere but I can't seem to find it doing searches.
I have been wet shaving for a few years using cream but recently decided to give soap a try.
I have watched a few tutorials on youtube and as I did when I first got started checked out mantic also.
I thought I had it down and actually got a decent lather from a puck of VDH. Well...decent meaning better than previous lathers.
Then I began looking at Mama bear soaps and while doing a search here today found a great tutorial on lathering glycerin soaps.

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/439-Glycerin-Soap-Tutorial-Part-2

However, in all the lathering tutorials I have seen up until today they have said to use very little water and they all instruct to give a good squeeze to the brush followed by a few good shakes to get an almost dry brush. They also keep reminding not to add too much water to the bowl and only add by drops.
On the other hand the tutorial I linked to above is saying the opposite as does the whole thread that follows. I started thinking there were two different types of soap one being 'regular shave soap" and the other glycerin, requiring two different techniques. But a further search here explained that all shave soaps are glycerin soaps.

So now I am a bit confused. Any help here?

Sorry if this has been covered and i just haven't found it.

Thanks.

 

[Latherdude]

I find it easier to soak a brush, squeeze most of the water out, and swirl it around the soap until it starts getting thick. Too much water just makes bubbly soup and poor lather. Over time using the same brush and soap, you'll be able to figure out how much water to leave in the brush instead of adding drops of water to your mix after the initial load. It's much easier to add water to a dry mix, than it is to remove water from a too-wet mix.

You can also let a thin layer of water soak on top of your soap to soften it up a bit before you load your brush.

And finally, welcome to B&B!!

 

[Shady24]

When using hard soaps it is somewhat difficult to get enough soap on your brush to work with.. So it is important to put a little water on the puck to soften up the soap so your brush will pick up enough soap. once you have enough soap on your brush you can then begin to add water to the mix either via a bowl or dipping the tips of the brush in water and face lathering.. adding water as you go...

There are several different ways to lather soap so you'll get different suggestions but the best tutorial for me was Jim's soap tutorial.. Below is a link to Jim's tutorial.. hope it helps... It has worked for all soaps I have used...

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/21136

 

[blzrfn]

No two soaps are the same, nor are users experiences depending on the hardness of their water and the type of brush they are using. There are multiple techniques that may work with a certain soap, the important thing is to dial in a technique that works for you. For ME, I have found that it is always easier to start out with my brush mostly shaken free of excess moisture to load and then dip the tips of the brush in water to build the lather on my face. I have used this technique pretty successfully for many soaps with the main variables being how long I have to load for and how many times I dip the tips of my brush in water. Take some spare time and try different techniques using the same soap/brush combo. Load, build your lather, observe, rinse and repeat trying something different. It can be fun and should definitely be educational if you pay attention to what you are doing.

 

[Songwind]

Basically, both methods work. You should try both and see which one makes you happier.

Personally, I find it easier to hit a good lather by starting with a wet brush and loading until the lather it's generating seems almost ready. I don't always start with a 100% wet brush (I usually give my badger brushes at least one gentle shake), but I have never had good results from starting too dry.

 

[Emanon]

When using hard soaps it is somewhat difficult to get enough soap on your brush to work with.. So it is important to put a little water on the puck to soften up the soap so your brush will pick up enough soap. once you have enough soap on your brush you can then begin to add water to the mix either via a bowl or dipping the tips of the brush in water and face lathering.. adding water as you go...

There are several different ways to lather soap so you'll get different suggestions but the best tutorial for me was Jim's soap tutorial.. Below is a link to Jim's tutorial.. hope it helps... It has worked for all soaps I have used...

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/21136

I have seen this tutorial before and it is the method I used. It worked well for me but I need a little work I think. Well, I say that judging by the slickness I see other referring to concerning soaps. I got a good lather but similar to my normal cream (Bigelow/Proraso). Not what I would call slick. But as the tutorial you linked to was good it is opposite from the tutorial I linked to which says not to squeeze or shake out the water. Which is confusing. I guess finding my own method is going to have to be the key here based on my prior shaving experience. I would imagine starting with less water is better than too much. It's easier to add than remove.

I have been wet shaving (face only) for about 5 years....a bit less time that I have been shaving my head which I shave with a fusion and headslick in the shower. I can't say I am a great shaver because my time is limited. I started out shaving with a brush and bowl (cream) everyday. Then time limitations set in related to my job schedule and the hour and a half drive to work. So I stopped using a bowl and switched to my hand and eventually to only using a brush on weekends/days off. I went back to a Mach 3 and Kiss My Face moisture shave on work days.

But two things happened a couple of weeks ago. One is I bought a cheap VDH boar brush to keep in the shower and try on my head (I never used a brush on my head but just slapped headslick up there during my shower and shaved away). The same day I also purchased some King Of Shaves Alphagel since I ran out of Kiss My face. Well those two things were an ah ha moment. The shave I got on my head after using the brush was amazing and my head was unbelievably smooth and not too bad even the next day. I usually use my Fusion on my head for about 30 shaves changing the 1st of every month. Same for my Mach 3 on my face although that one gets a little rough. I was at about 20 days when I used the KOS alphagel. WOW!! Smooth is an understatement....and with a used blade. And the next day...again...still not bad growth wise. I didn't need a shave. What a close and long lasting shave. And no tugging, pulling or burn. A smooth, slick shave like I've never had. I began to think my schedule caused me to rush too much and my brush/bowl technique wasn't ever so good. The boar brush and headslick revelation also said something educating to me. "LATHERING!" That is the key. Same shave cream I had been using for 6 years on my head and what a different shave. And not a new blade either. All from a brush and better lather. Hmmmm....interesting.

So, this gave me the idea to try soap since I read how good it was and many like it better than cream for smoothness. Maybe it was just my lathering technique. Maybe I needed to learn better lathering technique for soap. So here I am. I'm tryin' man!!! The thing is that, even with a dull blade, that King Of Shaves stuff has to be the best shave I've ever had. I used it again today after a weekend of soap and even after 9 hours I am at work feeling my face as I type this and it is still like a fresh shave. I have some hard to get spots under my jaw and on my neck in curves. It usually takes a really careful shave, extra passes in those spots and then blade buffing. But with the DE it is only ever just about smooth....not quite there. With the mach 3 and the KOS? Babies butt...wow. Even 9 hours later. But! I want this from my brush and bowl and soap. It's cleaner and fresher/more natural. Better for my skin. So I'm still tying. I want this man! I want it right. So after 5 years of wet DE shaving....I'm starting over


Thanks

 

[Go West Young Man]

Yeah, you're over thinking it. Every soap and brush combo needs a slightly different approach, you need to mess around with different proportions and techniques.

The only rule is to consider everything you read here as a suggestion, and figure out through trial and error what actually works.

 

[brother cavefish]

I find it easier to soak a brush, squeeze most of the water out, and swirl it around the soap until it starts getting thick. Too much water just makes bubbly soup and poor lather. Over time using the same brush and soap, you'll be able to figure out how much water to leave in the brush instead of adding drops of water to your mix after the initial load. It's much easier to add water to a dry mix, than it is to remove water from a too-wet mix.

You can also let a thin layer of water soak on top of your soap to soften it up a bit before you load your brush.

And finally, welcome to B&B!!

this is me exactly

 

[Emanon]

Today I tried to make some adjustments. I used the VDH Boar brush that I use on my head in the shower to face shave today. Still with the VDH Deluxe soap.
Today I shaved my head and then got out of the shower to start on my face so the brush was good and wet. I filled my bowl with hot water anyway and threw the brush in while I tended to other things. Before I got in the shower I had added warm tap water to the soap puck, About a teaspoon or two.

When I was done patting with hazel on my freshly shaved head and deodorizing and cleaning up a bit I poured the water out of my shave bowl and shook some of the excess water from the brush. Then I dumped the little bit of water from the puck into my shave bowl. I took the brush to the puck, which is in it's own little tub, and started swirling and pumping. It really got going quick and started to lather up right there. I kept going for a minute or so and got some lather on the brush and coming off the puck. I then went to the bowl and started whipping up lather. It was going ok but a bit dense and flat so I added water by drops off my hand and whipped and pumped more. Now we were cooking with fire! More whipping a little more water and some more whipping and we're done.

It went on my face nicely and gave me a thick foam beard. But on one side of my face it was thinner. No peaks. Don't know why. I kept trying but it never really got heavy on that side. Just the left cheek side. Neck on the same side was fine...just the face. But anyway, it was all good. I got a good shave and I would say it is 99% BBS. Wish list? I wish the lather was a bit more cushiony. That could be the soap or it could be me. It was slick... I guess...but I may be spoiled from the alphagel. I mean, gel is like ice when it comes to being slick. And thick, which gives good protection and cushion. . But my shave today was good. Three passes plus touch ups, my usual. I think my hair grows every which way. I shave down, then up the across. In essence I think I may be (for the most part) going WTG, ATG and XTG. Still had lather left.

And it was smooth and no nicks. My neck is clean and not irritated although my face is a bit sore/irritated which is odd for me. If anything my neck gets it because of the hard to get spots. So I think I will purchase a new brush and go with boar for my soap. I will be ironing out the water ratio. Today was good but I could use improvement. Then again I'll have to try another soap and see what difference that makes. Especially in slickness and cushion. Today may have been just a tad thin. Maybe less water next time. Just a little.

Thanks all

 

[attime6]

Every soap lathers differently, lately I've been using Marco's method on all my soaps and I'm getting better lathers than I would when starting drier.

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/199887-My-lathering-technique-with-Italian-soft-soaps

 

[Wingnut]

It sounds like your lathering skills are progressing nicely!

My guess is that your lather was not the reason for your odd irritation, but your lack of consistent technique. When you're just starting out, consistency is not most guy's strong point. Maybe you were concentrating on your neck cause you KNEW that's where you'd get irritation, but were more casual with the rest of your face, letting your blade angle get a little sloppy or adding a bit of pressure unconsciously. Just a thought...

 

[Emanon]

It sounds like your lathering skills are progressing nicely!

My guess is that your lather was not the reason for your odd irritation, but your lack of consistent technique. When you're just starting out, consistency is not most guy's strong point. Maybe you were concentrating on your neck cause you KNEW that's where you'd get irritation, but were more casual with the rest of your face, letting your blade angle get a little sloppy or adding a bit of pressure unconsciously. Just a thought...

Could be. But I've been at this for 5 years so I'm pretty used to my face and how I apply pressure etc. Sometimes it's just a change that causes ripples in the usual outcome. This change being soap as opposed to my usual cream. Also, due to time constraints I have been DE shaving less lately so a fresh blade after a break may be adding to the mix. Nothing serious going on with my face but just a feeling of "I know I shaved." Normally I shave, finish up and feel nothing.

I'm experienced enough (in shaving as well as life) to know that "these things will pass." Tiny adjustments. I've been lax about my wet shaving for awhile. Now I'm trying to re-respect it.

 

[Wingnut]

Oops, I forgot that you're not the usual "low-post-count-never-done-this-before" kind of newbie. You've been at it long enough to know, and I second your analysis. Back to basics is always a good thing!

 

[LittleSocrates]

You can also let a thin layer of water soak on top of your soap to soften it up a bit before you load your brush.

Props...I did this today and it worked great. I shave after I shower (usually take quick showers...no more than 5 minutes), and before I showered I just put a quarter-sized shallow puddle of water on the soap (from the soaking brush). When I then was ready to lather and started swirling it really sprang to life! I'm a noob, but I will "rinse and repeat" this process for certain. Made a terrific foam that didn't dry on my face.

 

[Emanon]

Oops, I forgot that you're not the usual "low-post-count-never-done-this-before" kind of newbie. You've been at it long enough to know, and I second your analysis. Back to basics is always a good thing!

That's why it's important to learn the fundamentals...of anything. Eventually we slack off (or get old) and have to readjust. But you have to know the basics well enough the right way before you can attempt tweaking them. For me time constraints caused me to start cutting corners to save time thus relearning (imbedding into my brain) poor technique.

Oddly enough, a visit to a Perfume factory on vacation in the Bahamas where I saw "Bay Rum" got me back to grooming properly. I said "hey...I have Bay Rum at home, and went home and started searching Bay Rum. Which led to a try of Masters Bay Rum and then Ogallala and then new blades and cream and then soap (see how fast you start spending money?) and then next thing you know here I am. Back into doing it right! Strange how these things come about.

But I want to go soap now. I think overall it can be cheaper than cream and with my new addiction to aftershave/cologne/Bay Rum/Ogallala/face wash/moisturizer...

Well, you get the idea.

I had a cold last week and my wife called me at work to see how I was doing. I told her "I feel like I was run over by a truck." "But my face looks great!"

Thanks all

Tommy

 

[Ducati Scotty]

I suffered the same confuzzlement when I started, some saying wring the brush out and others saying soak the badger brush and don't even shake, just let it drip. In general, if you add too much water too soon the lather tends to get large bubbles and never really develop, for both soap and cream. Having a fairly dry brush allows you to really load up the brush with soap. You can add quite a bit of water to many soaps but again, too much too soon and the lather collapses into big bubbles and not much else. Adding just a few drops at a time makes sure you don't do that.

Stick with the fairly dry brush start and adding water just a bit at a time, and try to stick to one soap for a bit if you can. Once you get the feel of it you'll develop a knack for how much water you can add and when.

I started off with the VDH soap and boar brush and had a terrible time until I adopted this routine. Then the clouds parted and my cup runeth over, with lather Once you master making a good lather with VDH soap and boar brush almost anything else is child's play. Should things go off the rails, return to the technique and you should be sorted quickly.

Scott

 

[Emanon]

I suffered the same confuzzlement when I started, some saying wring the brush out and others saying soak the badger brush and don't even shake, just let it drip. In general, if you add too much water too soon the lather tends to get large bubbles and never really develop, for both soap and cream. Having a fairly dry brush allows you to really load up the brush with soap. You can add quite a bit of water to many soaps but again, too much too soon and the lather collapses into big bubbles and not much else. Adding just a few drops at a time makes sure you don't do that.

Stick with the fairly dry brush start and adding water just a bit at a time, and try to stick to one soap for a bit if you can. Once you get the feel of it you'll develop a knack for how much water you can add and when.

I started off with the VDH soap and boar brush and had a terrible time until I adopted this routine. Then the clouds parted and my cup runeth over, with lather Once you master making a good lather with VDH soap and boar brush almost anything else is child's play. Should things go off the rails, return to the technique and you should be sorted quickly.

Scott

Sound advice and it makes perfect sense.

 

[BlackBear]

When I was done patting with hazel on my freshly shaved head and deodorizing and cleaning up a bit I poured the water out of my shave bowl and shook some of the excess water from the brush. Then I dumped the little bit of water from the puck into my shave bowl. I took the brush to the puck, which is in it's own little tub, and started swirling and pumping. It really got going quick and started to lather up right there. I kept going for a minute or so and got some lather on the brush and coming off the puck. I then went to the bowl and started whipping up lather. It was going ok but a bit dense and flat so I added water by drops off my hand and whipped and pumped more. Now we were cooking with fire! More whipping a little more water and some more whipping and we're done.

This is my exact routine with soap pucks if I'm bowl lathering, that lovely soapy water is wasted if tipped down the drain.

 

[ackvil]

Perhaps this post may help you. There are various ways of making lather. Some use a wet brush as in Marco's method. Some use a fairly dry brush as Jim points out. I use a combo of the two.

There is no perfect way to make lather - just what works for you. Some folks like a wet lather. Some folks like a fairly dry, rich lather.

 

[Emanon]

Thanks akvil. Actually that was the method I started on and based my lathering technique. It was the first thing I came across in my first searches on Google. I read that post in my search before starting with soap. It wasn't until I came to the opposite post (the wet brush) that I started my thread. But now I see that there is a happy medium. The KISS method. Keep it simple. Take both ways and feel it out. Then use "my" way. Whatever works right. Get the fundamentals down.

Thanks