Shell Cordovan Strops DIY

[SliceOfLife]

Well yeah, other cuts are both longer and cheaper. Why pay $400 for a shell piece you get 2-3 full size strops out of, when you can pay half as much for a piece you can get 6 or more full size strops out of? Cordovan is a specialty material for strops and costs substantially more. From what I'm seeing, the materials for a cordovan strop will run you $50-150 assuming you get grade 1 or grade a or whatever it is called... which supposedly has no defects that would need to be cut around: depending on what you're paying for them, how close to perfect (uniform long oval close to rectangular) the shape of the particular shell piece is, etc... and I'm assuming that goes down at any decent amount of scale.

Still, With some involved hand-tooling, nice hardware bits, etc... I could see an easy $50 on top of leather cost being justifiable... but going from $100-200 to 250gbp (~$350)+... that's where I get the impression it's someone just overcharging under the idea that their quality isn't available anywhere else... and that's fine if people will pay it... but it seems a flawed assumption to me because, like has been pointed out... that's the TOP end of Kanayama pricing... and Kanayama has strops that cost 1/3 to 1/2 that where there's minimal quality differences in practice based on all the reports/reviews I've seen...

Especially given that Kanayama has extra length and thickness from the specs of this maker's strops... Basically Kanayama's material costs SHOULD be higher from what I can tell looking at leather costs and the strops themselves. (Please someone tell me what I'm missing if 18" long 1.5mm thick cordovan shell should cost more than 24" long 4mm thick cordovan shell.) And a few weeks ago we had a thread here about how ludicrously overpriced Kanayama's strops are... now we're using them to argue that they are the "Value" option. That suggests that the price we're comparing them against is out of whack.

 

[SliceOfLife]

As a price comp:

(All priced shipped)
Kanayama 10k: $120 ~22" usable length x 3-4mm thickness, includes canvas
Kanayama 40k: $155 ~24" usable length x 3.5-4mm thickness, includes canvas
Kanayama 90k: $300 ~24" usable length x 3.5-5mm thickness, includes suede & canvas.

(Presumably Plus shipping cost from UK)
Westholme D ring: $300 ~17.5" usable length 1.5-2mm thickness.

Tony looks to be out of stock right now of anything in his more tooled & 3" sizes, but if memory serves he's around $120-130 for those in HH leather, and his Size/tooling/hardware is fairly comparable to Westholmes, so price-wise, they're pricing in a roughly an additional $175 for the upgrade to Cordovan from his (very nice) horsehide, and that seems unjustified to me from the prices I've seen on leathers. I'm sure he's looked at what he'd have to charge to do Cordovan, so maybe he can correct me if $300 is reasonable, however. He did say it's not "out of line"... but to me that could mean $300 isn't much more than $200... so it's not "out of line" or it could mean -even at $300 I'd have trouble turning a profit, so that's completely reasonable-.

It's a shame because I see they have Spanish HH coming, and my Spanish HH is among my favorite strops... but I don't expect it to be priced where I might consider it; to be frank.

 

[Brianskeet]

On a lets take a long hard look at price basis there is no reason anyone would ever buy a genuine cordovan strop, but then again there are a lot of things that fall into that category. I have custom Razors that were monstrously expensive and lets face it, all they do is remove my whiskers. A Rolls Royce Phantom would not serve me nearly as well when I go to Lowe's as my truck, but given the chance I would dang sure love to give it a try. No luxury ever makes sense from a practical standpoint, but I still take my wife out to a fancy dinner now and then. Sometimes we engage in small luxuries just because we like it.

 

[Tony Miller]

View attachment 1192027

Makes sense to attach one end so it can’t rotate

The biggest issue with this design is trying to find hardware that a 2 1/2" or 3" strop could fit through or you would need to make a narrower top cap that would fit and slide in the ring but then widen enough to support the full width of the strop. Dovo and Jemico usually did this design of 1 1/2", 1 3/4" and 2" strops.

It is a great design, just hard to source material for.

 

[Tony Miller]

As a price comp:

(All priced shipped)
Kanayama 10k: $120 ~22" usable length x 3-4mm thickness, includes canvas
Kanayama 40k: $155 ~24" usable length x 3.5-4mm thickness, includes canvas
Kanayama 90k: $300 ~24" usable length x 3.5-5mm thickness, includes suede & canvas.

(Presumably Plus shipping cost from UK)
Westholme D ring: $300 ~17.5" usable length 1.5-2mm thickness.

Tony looks to be out of stock right now of anything in his more tooled & 3" sizes, but if memory serves he's around $120-130 for those in HH leather, and his Size/tooling/hardware is fairly comparable to Westholmes, so price-wise, they're pricing in a roughly an additional $175 for the upgrade to Cordovan from his (very nice) horsehide, and that seems unjustified to me from the prices I've seen on leathers. I'm sure he's looked at what he'd have to charge to do Cordovan, so maybe he can correct me if $300 is reasonable, however. He did say it's not "out of line"... but to me that could mean $300 isn't much more than $200... so it's not "out of line" or it could mean -even at $300 I'd have trouble turning a profit, so that's completely reasonable-.

It's a shame because I see they have Spanish HH coming, and my Spanish HH is among my favorite strops... but I don't expect it to be priced where I might consider it; to be frank.

Mine max out at $117 with linen and handles, any leather. You are correct that adding another $100-$150 for cordovan would be about right with a large Horween shell at $300-$375 (plus Horween's $30+ shipping charges) and maybe getting 2 or 3 strops from it not counting any additional profit for taking a risk on receiving an unusable shell beyond the profit already built into the standard material strops. Cordovan is great, I would love to use it but cannot justify any increase in cost for the slight performance gained.

I think their prices are exactly where I would be if I offered cordovan as well. Also remember that any of these sellers operating as a real business are forking over a nice sum in taxes (FED, State and Social Security) so what winds up in their pocket is a good deal less than that selling price beyond what is left after materials are accounted for.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Ah thanks for the explanation. By unusable, do you mean flaws in the area you'd need to cut the strop or just not long enough (too circular)? Don't they offer any sort of guarantee that their shells won't have a defect right in the middle? I'd assume that sort of thing would keep them from being graded well?

 

[SliceOfLife]

So I scored 100 ft of good condition vintage linen fire hose to replace some pasted, damaged, or otherwise unusable linens from some vintage strops I'm restoring... It's going to leave me with a few extra feet I think, so I borrowed that link you posted at the start and ordered the largest size, I'm hoping I can get at least three 20-in or longer strops out of it but we'll see. I don't have any tooling experience but I'm pretty sure I can punch a hole in the top and burnish down the edges to get a very basic strop and I'll post some pictures when it arrives and once I'm done.

Should be here Saturday or Monday I'm thinking with the DHL Express delivery.

A little concerned about the cordovan possibly not being thick enough to support the vintage style thumb screw hanger without tearing. If anyone has any ideas let me know, right now I'm thinking of maybe cutting about an inch of the hose as a sleeve and mounting the strop with the linen secondary and the cordavon within a second piece of linen sleeve... So essentially two pieces of linen sandwiched in the clasp and the linen sleeve helping to reduce the force that the mounting hole in the cordovan has to bear.

 

[Brianskeet]

My Neil Miller and my Walkin Horse both use three point Chicago screws through leather end pieces that make up the handle. Easier to show you than to describe.

 

[SliceOfLife]

So the quoted size is between 3 and 3.5 square feet... Worst case shape assuming a uniform shape would be a circle, which would be about 2 ft (23.5-25") diameter, which assuming there's no flaws that I'd have to cut around would be one roughly 23" two roughly 21" two roughly 19"and two roughly 15", according to my admittedly weak geometry skills.

An oblong piece would be better...fewer strops but more long strops. And one with a wavy or non-uniform shape would be worse. We shall see. If I wind up with a nice squarish oblong piece I can get 4x @ 24" length, I'm going to be thrilled.

Of course the dream piece that is not ever going to happen would be a perfect square at the max end of 3.5 square feet where you could cut 9 23" strops if there were no flaws. I wonder if I can ask them for the shell from a Minecraft horse.


Thank you Brian, I was looking more for ideas and how to ensure it was safe and stable using the traditional hardware though. I'd prefer to avoid using multiple rivets if possible.

 

[Slash McCoy]

So I scored 100 ft of good condition vintage linen fire hose to replace some pasted, damaged, or otherwise unusable linens from some vintage strops I'm restoring... It's going to leave me with a few extra feet I think, so I borrowed that link you posted at the start and ordered the largest size, I'm hoping I can get at least three 20-in or longer strops out of it but we'll see. I don't have any tooling experience but I'm pretty sure I can punch a hole in the top and burnish down the edges to get a very basic strop and I'll post some pictures when it arrives and once I'm done.

Should be here Saturday or Monday I'm thinking with the DHL Express delivery.

A little concerned about the cordovan possibly not being thick enough to support the vintage style thumb screw hanger without tearing. If anyone has any ideas let me know, right now I'm thinking of maybe cutting about an inch of the hose as a sleeve and mounting the strop with the linen secondary and the cordavon within a second piece of linen sleeve... So essentially two pieces of linen sandwiched in the clasp and the linen sleeve helping to reduce the force that the mounting hole in the cordovan has to bear.

You could sew a cowhide reinforcing piece front and back at the end, and poke you hones in that. Google or youtube for "saddle stitch". It's pretty easy.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Yeah that's a pretty good idea I have a lot of scrap leather from trashed strops laying around. Thanks I'll look into it.

 

[Tony Miller]

Ah thanks for the explanation. By unusable, do you mean flaws in the area you'd need to cut the strop or just not long enough (too circular)? Don't they offer any sort of guarantee that their shells won't have a defect right in the middle? I'd assume that sort of thing would keep them from being graded well?

I am mainly concerned with yield from the oval shape. The shells they measured for me were 22" to 25" long but maybe 12" to 16" wide. So maybe 2 or 3 full length strops and the sides that are left will only yield really short pieces.

Defects can vary. Even the best grade of leather will have 'acceptable" flaws according to the grading system but unusable to me either from a flaw that can be felt when stropping or simply an ugly spot. I buy 6 horse butts at a time and usually only half yield first quality pieces and half plains, and afew shipments have yielded pretty much nothing so I make notebook covers from them rather than strops.

Attached are pics of 2 Horween shells, the long one $260, the other wider one $370 (shipping not included, but usually $30+ and a 10-12 week delivery time) Nice and long but the oval / pointy ends limit how many 22" to 24" pieces can be cut to 2 or 4 at best. The longish one has a 6" wide flat at the top to give an idea of scale. The wider is about 10" at the flat but the opposite end tapers in a lot meaning few long pieces and several really short 14" to 16" pieces that no one will want to buy. Also note the ripples and waves that may not lay flat even after cutting.....umm, not on my strops thanks

I would love to offer cordovan but just not worth the return for me. I am glad there are makers offering them but just not a direction I plan to head right now.

 

[LJS]

And I bet the edges are poor and you have to cut within for good material and uniformity. Wonderful stuff......just pricy for yield. That makes it tough.

 

[LJS]

You could sew a cowhide reinforcing piece front and back at the end, and poke you hones in that. Google or youtube for "saddle stitch". It's pretty easy.

You can certainly reinforce and should if concerned it may tear. But since it is under the ends and you want maximum contact for support, there are some relatively inexpensive rubber glues for leather I would recommend you look at. More surface area attachment and support than sewn. Also quick and easy - just glue and clamp. But agree with slash completely again.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Yeah, There's an etsy seller with Horween's listed. One he's got is perfect to get two nice long (24"+) strops out of and maybe 1 shorter one. I almost bought it ($175 shipped), but the pictures had some waves to the leather... I suspect they were just visual, but if I dropped that much and it got here with creases and I had to do a return... I'd be pretty upset. The rest were mostly too short... ~18" long almost circular or squared off. But they are all 1.2-2.0sqft... with the XL 3.0+sqft size this italian vendor has, I can't see how you can't get at least three 20"+ unless flaws or really weird shaping are to blame... but we shall see when it arrives.


That second one you showed looks great to my eyes (and looks like the size I purchased... 3.0-3.5sqft)... I see 3 23-24" and one 22" there unless I'm mistaken (Plus one ~17-18" and one ~15-16")... but yeah at $100 each in leather cost for the long ones (I'd assume 12-14" usable length cordovan strops is a pretty hard sell). First one... one 23" and two 20-21" maybe? (But that looks like it's only 1.8-2.4sqft) So looks like Horween is roughly $100 in leather per strop, give or take?

Oh and I'm thinking in 2.5" widths... I can see how going up to 3" really cuts into that. Probably lose 1 strop out of almost every shell.

I'm hoping I get at least 3 strops from the piece I bought... if so, It's already beating the Horween costs. (And this seller shipped DHL express for $20)


Edit: Added the picture of the piece I looked at on etsy. Seller grids it so you can see the two ~22x2.5" strops falling right in the middle of the grid. And then maybe a 16" or so bonus.

 

[LJS]

Not on shell, but I have been burned enough. Maybe only my opinion, but a strop needs a finer piece of leather than most any other leather product.

I just no longer buy leather sight-unseen. I need to hold it and feel it. I am also happy to pay a premium to folks who do grade and value for strop material. It is worth it in my opinion and actually saves money. And you can waste plenty of money on unacceptable leather. Or at least I have

 

[SliceOfLife]

Where does one go to purchase in person big slabs of prepared but untooled leather in the US? I seem to remember it took someone several towns and many shops in specialty leatherworking area's in Japan to even find a place that carried shell pieces.

 

[LJS]

Shell, no place I know of.

General US, Tandy leather in many places but it is kind of like the Walmart for leather.

This will likely sound odd and I’m not sure how common this is everywhere, but down here they have several “events” where folks often show up selling hides/strips/pieces/furs/etc. Here they do a French rendezvous reenactment, several Native American events and pow-wows, and some old fort reenactment events where all the “old timey” stuff like candle making, blacksmithing etc all show up. This is where I often buy leather. It is perfectly OK to laugh at me now But I have been able to buy some great stuff. Good Veg tanned is a go to staple to have. But I have bought water buffalo, American bison, kangaroo, all sorts of stuff. But there you can feel it, the thickness, the smoothness, etc. Sure saves me money. I have quite a bit of “scrap” leather already.

 

[Tony Miller]

Not on shell, but I have been burned enough. Maybe only my opinion, but a strop needs a finer piece of leather than most any other leather product.

I just no longer buy leather sight-unseen. I need to hold it and feel it. I am also happy to pay a premium to folks who do grade and value for strop material. It is worth it in my opinion and actually saves money. And you can waste plenty of money on unacceptable leather. Or at least I have

Horween is the only supplier I will use sight unseen and still about 50% of the time what I get is not strop quality. If I did not do the Plain Strops with the cosmetic issues I would be throwing a lot of leather out. Even with that there are many complete butts that I would not make any strops from.

 

[Tony Miller]

Yeah, There's an etsy seller with Horween's listed. One he's got is perfect to get two nice long (24"+) strops out of and maybe 1 shorter one. I almost bought it ($175 shipped), but the pictures had some waves to the leather... I suspect they were just visual, but if I dropped that much and it got here with creases and I had to do a return... I'd be pretty upset. The rest were mostly too short... ~18" long almost circular or squared off. But they are all 1.2-2.0sqft... with the XL 3.0+sqft size this italian vendor has, I can't see how you can't get at least three 20"+ unless flaws or really weird shaping are to blame... but we shall see when it arrives.


That second one you showed looks great to my eyes (and looks like the size I purchased... 3.0-3.5sqft)... I see 3 23-24" and one 22" there unless I'm mistaken (Plus one ~17-18" and one ~15-16")... but yeah at $100 each in leather cost for the long ones (I'd assume 12-14" usable length cordovan strops is a pretty hard sell). First one... one 23" and two 20-21" maybe? (But that looks like it's only 1.8-2.4sqft) So looks like Horween is roughly $100 in leather per strop, give or take?

Oh and I'm thinking in 2.5" widths... I can see how going up to 3" really cuts into that. Probably lose 1 strop out of almost every shell.

I'm hoping I get at least 3 strops from the piece I bought... if so, It's already beating the Horween costs. (And this seller shipped DHL express for $20)


Edit: Added the picture of the piece I looked at on etsy. Seller grids it so you can see the two ~22x2.5" strops falling right in the middle of the grid. And then maybe a 16" or so bonus.

The XXL Horween Shells will be 3sq.ft. and over but run $370'ish, everything else is smaller, an XL 2.5-2.9 sq.ft were $330 and these are 2019 prices.

I like the grid photos, makes it mush easier to see what the yield might be. I am basing all my info on 3" widths as that is what most seems to want from me as I can supply it with real flax linen. 2 1/2" linen has become impossible for me to source otherwise I would love to make 2 1/2" horse/linen plain end strops, my favorite version.

Hoping the waves are not an issues on your shell. On the pics I sent not only are the large waves if you look close you can see a corrugated, washboard like pattern that is frequently found on horsehide and would not feel good running across the width of a strop. Lengthwise it would not be felt but would still be a visual drawback and would relegate it to a Plain for me.

Despite the price and occasional quality concerns I am grateful to have a good relationship with Horween and they are pretty much the only supplier I will use when buying sight unseen. Finding really nice leather is not as easy as it seems and there are many times each year (like now) I cannot get the quality I desire and simply have nothing to sell right now. (pandemic shutdowns have not helped any industry, tanneries included)

Good luck on your project and let us know how it goes!