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Over-honing

I would like to share something that I have come to discover in my learning in my honing journey. I have been lucky to have had Steve56 and Doc226 as mentors. When i first started honing i was using way way to much pressure. I had the typical chippy over-honed edges - with harsh shave and all. About two weeks ago i got a new light installed over my honing table - and it opened my eyes and helped with my honing and magnification.

My progession is shapton 1.5k, 5k, 8k, and 12k naniwa. I would only then at the time do 30 laps to finish on the 12k - and i thought i was over doing the edge and chipping it. So thought i was seeing microchips with my 10x loupe- but the fact was it was remnants of wire- edges that resembled chippy steel. Steve56 brought this to my attention that bits of fin' can look like micro-chips .Come to find out i did 60 total laps on the nan/12k and it infact coaxed off the small remnants of burrs that resembled chips - I would do 10 laps on 12k then strop for 25 laps on bare leather then 10 more on the stone and so on etc. So now i have a perfectly straight bevel witu zero chipping or zero over honed fin'. Some may not belivee this but I even expermented on my Sterling hollow ground razor, and i did 100 laps on 12k, with no wire edges and zero chipping- i do a slight back-hone motion, before going forward when i finish on my fininshing stones. (Think of the way Sham does his honing motion)

I have watched all the videos of fellows only doing 10-15 laps on a naniwa 12k, and 8 laps on a shapton 30k. If a finiishing stone was that fast you could do a bevel set all the way to finish with just one stone -IMO no stone is that fast - there is no way you can get a 12k edge with only 10 or so laps (I now finish with 50-55 laps and i get a "actual" 12k finish on my bevels) Overhoning i have discovered in my experience is using way too much pressure, and not the high number of laps. If you do have a fin' at 8k and go to the 12k - the 12k will coax and remove any bits of fin' that is left. Super Super light passes will not raise a Fin' - if they are any pieces fin' the finisher will remove it - its all about super light pressure.
Same when we sharpen knives - 'any' finishing stone can remove/deburr any remnants of wire edges from a knife, without any assistance of strops loaded with compounds. Thanks again for the help Steve and Alfredo!
 
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..... -IMO no stone is that fast -.......
With honing, as with most things, be careful with sweeping generalities. I get black swarf on the first pass with both the Shapton 15K and the G-20 which is a 0.5 micron synthetic. Same as a Shapton 30K. It's a pretty aggressive finisher.
 
With honing, as with most things, be careful with sweeping generalities. I get black swarf on the first pass with both the Shapton 15K and the G-20 which is a 0.5 micron synthetic. Same as a Shapton 30K. It's a pretty aggressive finisher.
I haven't used the Gok/20k yet - I hope to try out an edge soon. The nan/12k I get some light streaking, but no heavy swarf with 50-55 laps.
 
It is certainly possible to overhone and get microchips. However, that depends a lot on the steel in the razor, the type of hone being used and your honing technique (pressure, lubrication, etc.). I have one razor that chips no matter how I try to hone them. I also have razors that never chip. I also have a Suihiro G20K that seems to be resistant to overhoning, but I am not certain that holds true for the Shapton Glass 30K which is of similar grit size to the G20K.
 
I enjoy my Naniwa 12k most if I have gotten the most I can squeeze out of the 8k first, then just enough laps on the 12k until it starts getting "sticky". Usually around 10 laps is all it takes, sometimes a bit more on the harder steels or smiling blades. The resulting edge is both very keen and yet very comfortable. In the past when I would do several laps on the 12k the edge would of course be keen, but it would also feel a bit harsh and caused irritation. This is just my preference and my experience, but that is what is what matters to me. I'm glad you found what works for you.
 
I have not been able to get my head wrapped around what guys are talking about with over honing. I thought maybe it was raising a slurry on some of these stones you guys are using causing the edge to regress?
 
It is certainly possible to overhone and get microchips. However, that depends a lot on the steel in the razor, the type of hone being used and your honing technique (pressure, lubrication, etc.). I have one razor that chips no matter how I try to hone them. I also have razors that never chip. I also have a Suihiro G20K that seems to be resistant to overhoning, but I am not certain that holds true for the Shapton Glass 30K which is of similar grit size to the G20K.
I read that the shapton glass stones are for designed for high ware hard steels??
 
I read that the shapton glass stones are for designed for high ware hard steels??
They are very fast for sure. I personally like them for low grit work but I rarely go over 4k even though I have a 8k and 16k. I like to do the rest of the work on jnats. Nice to have when you work with swedish steel ect.
But for finishing they are meh imo, a natural edge is more desirable.
 
They are very fast for sure. I personally like them for low grit work but I rarely go over 4k even though I have a 8k and 16k. I like to do the rest of the work on jnats. Nice to have when you work with swedish steel ect.
But for finishing they are meh imo, a natural edge is more desirable.
I have tried a Jnat edge - a very lovely edge. I'm very much still a novice, I haven't treaded into using natural territories yet. I do like the and enjoy nan/12k. At first I though the edges were overly harsh, but the reason for that was me - I was using too much pressure. Pressure is one of the things a fellow has to learn on his own - someone can tell you the amount of pressure of use, but when a fellow is new he is going to flatten the spin on a few razors - until he learns the correct pressure. Doc226 said it best as far as pressure - firm/heavy pressure on a hollow grind is considered the amount of pressure you would use on when erasing a pencil mark from paper.
 
You’re doing well Mike. The right amount of pressure and how to make it even along the edge is most of what razor honing is. Congrats!
 
I have not been able to get my head wrapped around what guys are talking about with over honing.
You are not alone.

I hone with a very light hand and have never experienced over honing despite going probably 100 laps past what I saw as a finished edge once in order to show someone who thought they were having over honing problems that it was not the lap count that was causing their problems.

I think that sometimes there can be rogue particles in a particular finisher that do a tiny bit of damage on each stroke that is insignificant at 10 laps, but add up to going backwards at higher lap counts. The Shapton 16k is one of the stones that I hear over honing complaints about. I have never used one, but the manufacturer does not recommend it for razors because of the wide particle distribution. So I guess that I'm not arguing that over honing does not exist, but that it does not happen to me with a light hand on stones that have a tight particle distribution.
 
You are not alone.

I hone with a very light hand and have never experienced over honing despite going probably 100 laps past what I saw as a finished edge once in order to show someone who thought they were having over honing problems that it was not the lap count that was causing their problems.

I think that sometimes there can be rogue particles in a particular finisher that do a tiny bit of damage on each stroke that is insignificant at 10 laps, but add up to going backwards at higher lap counts. The Shapton 16k is one of the stones that I hear over honing complaints about. I have never used one, but the manufacturer does not recommend it for razors because of the wide particle distribution. So I guess that I'm not arguing that over honing does not exist, but that it does not happen to me with a light hand on stones that have a tight particle distribution.
I agree! Correct Pressure/finesse is a must when honing razors. So far when I did overhone - it was because I was using too much pressure. I haven't used the 16k either - I did read that it causes micro-chipping on some steels?? I don't know if its a fact, but I have read it.
 
I think it was Steve that posted the words given to him about the 16k not being good for razors.
I find i can do many laps on a 12k if im going very lightly on the stone. I do many laps lightly to get the 8k stratches out. Then move to my 20k gok. Ive been playing with a lot of naturals and get great edges from them, thanks Steve, but i find myself reaching for the 20k more. It can give keen and smooth always. Some naturals i have to go back to the stone before im happy. Not the 20k.

Congrats on finding the feather touch it takes to get great edges. I found it by learning to flip properly. It made me hold the razor differently and the soft touch just came to me then.
 
I think it was Steve that posted the words given to him about the 16k not being good for razors.
I find i can do many laps on a 12k if im going very lightly on the stone. I do many laps lightly to get the 8k stratches out. Then move to my 20k gok. Ive been playing with a lot of naturals and get great edges from them, thanks Steve, but i find myself reaching for the 20k more. It can give keen and smooth always. Some naturals i have to go back to the stone before im happy. Not the 20k.

Congrats on finding the feather touch it takes to get great edges. I found it by learning to flip properly. It made me hold the razor differently and the soft touch just came to me then.

I have both a Shapton glass 16K and a Suehiro G20K. I have to be careful not to do too many strokes on the Shapton, but can do as many as I want on the Suehiro. It is expensive, but it is a very versatile hone. Utopian (Ron) has a video on YouTube where he used a G20K to go all the way from bevel set to final finishing on a single stone. It took quite a while, so unless you have a lot of patience, I do not recommend it, but it does demonstrate the versatility of the hone.
 
Some razors I have if I am on the finishing stone to long I will see very faint light reflecting from edge like a bur or w/e. Usually stropping on linen takes it all off but the edge is not as good for me when that happens. Only razors it seems to happen on when using synthetics are razors with small angle/decent hone wear or soft steel. Never happens when I use my coticule, but when I use my jnat happens on occasion (finishing with water instead of light slurry). I like my edges a lot but I am definitely not a pro when it comes to honing.
 
Some razors I have if I am on the finishing stone to long I will see very faint light reflecting from edge like a bur or w/e. Usually stropping on linen takes it all off but the edge is not as good for me when that happens. Only razors it seems to happen on when using synthetics are razors with small angle/decent hone wear or soft steel. Never happens when I use my coticule, but when I use my jnat happens on occasion (finishing with water instead of light slurry). I like my edges a lot but I am definitely not a pro when it comes to honing.
When your stones leave behind a slight burr, the strop will remove it, but as the metal breaks off, the edge left behind might not be uniform. It might even leave behind microchips that your face can feel. You might be able to remove those defects using pasted strops, but you are better off not getting them in the first place. I like using a USB microscope to examine my edge as it progresses, but a good loupe will also work.
 
When your stones leave behind a slight burr, the strop will remove it, but as the metal breaks off, the edge left behind might not be uniform. It might even leave behind microchips that your face can feel. You might be able to remove those defects using pasted strops, but you are better off not getting them in the first place. I like using a USB microscope to examine my edge as it progresses, but a good loupe will also work.
Yea not the biggest fan of my 8k synthetic, so whenever I do a full progression it's usually 1k, 5k, jnat with slurry until finish or 1k, 5k, coticule until finish (water only laps, usually 50-100 laps on my 5x2 does the trick. Dont usually count strokes though just wait until it feels done). I definitly still have work to do with jnat practice but usually I'm just touching up razors nowadays.
 
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