need arsenal of stones help...

[BJJ]

Hey guys, i've red everything about honing stones and i bought two straigh razors (muhle and dovo) waiting to get here.
anyway, i know that there are wonderful stones with amazing functions, but what i need is a reasonable and basic kit just to make
the SR shave ready and that's it. as far as know i red, people use more like waterstones and to start i dont want to spend too much money
just something that will get the job done ( best benefic cost )

i saw this website and has something that could help me i need your opinion : http://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/Razor-Edge-Knife-Sharpening-Kits.htm


also if you guys want to show some good links from ebay it would be very helpful


thanks

 

[SliceOfLife]

Angle guides aren't used for razors. Razors are designed so that they hone at the proper angle simply by laying flat.
If you're looking at synthetics then popular choices are norton 4000/8000 and naniwa 3000/8000 combo stones. Another option would be a natural coticule with a slurry stone and learning the dilucot method.
http://www.coticule.be/dilucot-honing-method.html

Opinions differ on which is the better method. I prefer the coticules. The naniwa are graded differently than the nortons so the finish off the Naniwa will be a bit finer than off the Norton.

You are starting with rather expensive razors to learn honing on. It may be advisable to purchase something cheap like a gold dollar (Available around $20 and will take a good edge, one of the few if not only <$50 new razors that will) to practice on until you are confident.

 

[Wid]

If you are looking to get into honing on the cheap (still produce a very good edge) look into lapping films.

 

[cb91710]

Ya... Basic honing skills can transfer from standard cutlery to straights, but in many ways, honing a straight is much easier due to the angle being self-setting.

Personally, my collection/progression is as follows:

DMT 325 for lapping the stones.
I suppose I might use it if I had a damaged or pitted blade and needed to completely rebuild the edge, but I have never put a blade on it.

DMT 1200 for bevel setting.
Norton 4000/8000 for the bulk of the work.

The blade will shave off of the 8000, but I don't mind spending more time to get a better edge.

Next up is my Naniwa 12000. I'll do 75-100 laps on that, then I'll move on to 100-150 laps on my C-Nat (also supposedly 12000, but much slower than the Naniwa, acts like a finer stone).
After that is CrOX on linen, maybe 100 laps, and another 100 or so on leather.

At this point, I can run ATG under my nose without stretching the skin and it feels like butter.... it holds that feeling for 3-4 shaves, then starts to lose it, but is still an excellent shave for dozens of shaves.

 

[BJJ]

Angle guides aren't used for razors. Razors are designed so that they hone at the proper angle simply by laying flat.
If you're looking at synthetics then popular choices are norton 4000/8000 and naniwa 3000/8000 combo stones. Another option would be a natural coticule with a slurry stone and learning the dilucot method.
http://www.coticule.be/dilucot-honing-method.html

Opinions differ on which is the better method. I prefer the coticules. The naniwa are graded differently than the nortons so the finish off the Naniwa will be a bit finer than off the Norton.

You are starting with rather expensive razors to learn honing on. It may be advisable to purchase something cheap like a gold dollar (Available around $20 and will take a good edge, one of the few if not only <$50 new razors that will) to practice on until you are confident.

oh, i forgat to say about this, i have one SR gold dollar to practice, thats exactly my plans. appreciate brow

 

[BJJ]

would that be ok?

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=55862


???

 

[rob_NH]

are you saying you lay the razor flat on the stone to work it? Like lapping the back of a chisel or plane iron? This seems like it would be very easy to do compared to learning to freehand sharpen the bevel edges of those same tools. Wouldn't this wear down the side of the razor over time though?

Is there a link to a youtube video?

Does anyone use shapton stones? I love them in the woodshop.

 

[cb91710]

would that be ok?

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=55862

That's not a bad set, but you'll never use the 220, and personally, I do not like the Norton lapping stone.
It works, but it's WAY slow, especially on the Norton 8000, and it never was able to flatten my Naniwa 12k.

The DMT325 however, made quick work of them... maybe 10 minutes.

Also, the Norton 8k is going to be the absolute bare minimum for a shave-ready edge. It really is not that good of an edge and you're really going to be happier with something above 8k for the final polishing before moving to the strop(s).

are you saying you lay the razor flat on the stone to work it? Like lapping the back of a chisel or plane iron? This seems like it would be very easy to do compared to learning to freehand sharpen the bevel edges of those same tools. Wouldn't this wear down the side of the razor over time though?

Exactly. Lay the blade flat, and the only pressure applied is the weight of the blade. Personally, I rest my fingers on the blade to help guide the push across the stone, but I am not pushing the edge down.
The edges are so thin and flexible that any applied pressure will cause the edge to lift and you end up honing slightly behind the point of the bevel and not sharpening the blade itself.

Yes, it does eventually wear on the spine. It's called hone wear and is simply something that happens as razors age. It is also a reminder to avoid honing too frequently. Barbers used to touch up frequently, but they were performing 10 or more shaves a day. Our grandfathers and great grandfathers may have only honed (or paid for honing) once every 6 months or so.

Does anyone use shapton stones? I love them in the woodshop.

Shapton glass is thought of very highly, but they are not cheap, especially in the finer grits above 8k.

 

[Danricgro]

The biggest mistake I made when I began honing was getting a higher grit stone to use after my Norton 8k. I'm not saying that the 8k edge can't be improved on, what I'm saying is that I tended to use the finisher, in my case is was a 12k superstone, before I had maximized my edge on the Nortons.

If I had it to do over I would hold off on getting a stone beyond the 8k until I had learned to use it to it's fullest. I have been honing for a couple of years now and I have alot of stones but I still do a test shave after the 8k before I move on.

Keep it simple at first, only add when you have mastered what you have otherwise it tends to slow the learning process.

 

[cb91710]

Oh I absolutely agree on not moving to 12k until the blade is ready, I made the same mistake in following Lynn's procedure to the letter regardless of what the blade was telling me.
The result was a stack of blades that shaved exactly like the one I bought from Lynn... awesome first shave, mediocre from there.

A 12k will do nothing until you have taken the 8k to it's limit.
The 8k will do nothing until you have taken the 4k to it's limit.
Well... it can, but it will take a long time.
The 4k will do nothing without a properly set bevel.
Good TNT the full length of the blade, and the bevel is good, no need to drop below 4k.

These days, I go on a given grit until I think it's ready, then do another 20-30 laps to be sure.
If I'm not consistently undercutting the water the full length of the blade on every lap both ways, I keep going. If I'm not seeing an improvement, then I drop back to a heavier grit.

 

[Gamma]

Coticule - and if anyone says they're too hard to learn on for a beginner, they're wrong.

Or - 1k King, 3/8k Naniwa SuperStone combo, croxed Linen hanger.

If you want more refinement, maybe add a 10/12k SS, or a Thuringian finisher to follow the 8k.

I can't shave well with an 8k JIS edge, and a Norton 8k edge is useless to me - so I needed a finer option to finish with as soon as I started honing.

 

[jred]

If you are looking to get into honing on the cheap (still produce a very good edge) look into lapping films.

This, you can get a few sheets of every grit you need for a dozen or more razors for $20 or so.

 

[cb91710]

This, you can get a few sheets of every grit you need for a dozen or more razors for $20 or so.

True, but like carts vs straights, films can get expensive in the long term.
It's a very low initial cost, where traditional hones will be $200-$400 for a set, but with stones, once you're set, you're set for many years unless you want to try something different/new.
Films are dirt cheap, but how long do they last?
Would I be able to hone my 7 blades on one set of films?

 

[SliceOfLife]

Probably? I remember someone mentioning that after seven (I believe it was seven) honings all their films but one were still useable. They were looking to replace one at that point though.


Honestly I don't think that price is a convincing argument either way. If you're going to argue that films are cheaper, you're going to pretend that every honer needs a 15 stone chosera set and a 14" DMT plate to flatten on. If you want to argue that stones are cheaper you're going to pretend that every honer has 500 razors waiting to be finished and needing heavy repairs.

I doubt there are many stone or film users who are doing this as affordably as they can, or more affordably than SOMEONE is doing the alternative. Someone was honing a razor start to finish on a 4" coticule in here the other day. That's a, what, $30 stone? A barebones set of films good for a handful of razors is surely competitive with that.

But there's always ways to spend more money. Film guys can build themselves all kinds of fancy strops and such and put $30 diamond ultrafine sprays on them or search out some crazy ultraflat surface made for NASA to hone on. Stone guys can well... buy stones. I wonder how many guys who preach that one or the other is the "cheap" method are using the setup they are pricing out as their proof of theory.

I think the old timers had it right. A 125x50 coticule with a rubbing stone and use it for the rest of your life. I'm guessing anyone who could stick with that will have the cheapest method around. (Although I think Chimensh (who's name I am sure I misspelled) once mentioned that he used a Swaty as his only stone for nearly thirty years).


Incidentally it looks like the OP has decided on the Norton kit from his posts elsewhere, so we're just continuing this conversation for our own amusement and/or posterity.

 

[Neurotopia]

If you have experience with Shaptons and you like them, go with what you know. Spending a bit more money for consistency and predictability is always a good trade-off. Me, I went with DMT 1.2 k for bevels, Norton 4k/8k, and a Cnat when I started out. Passable shaves, invested about $120. After a few months I added CrOx on balsa, and stuck with that for almost 2 years. CrOx was sharper and smoother, but not smooth enough for me. Then coticules entered the mix, my shave quality went through the roof, and I've done that ever since. I now finish on AlumOx on the coti and it is smoooooooth. Sold my original setup, bought a Chosera 1k for bevels. Of course I've spent a metric f-ton of money getting to this point, having gone through 4 or 5 cotis and a couple BBW. The moral of the story, you dunno what you like until you try it.

Spine wear is a normal part of the honing process. You can always tape if you want to keep them pristine (but at least search the forums and see the various pros and cons of taping, because over time your bevel angle changes if you tape).

 

[SliceOfLife]

Alumox on the coti? Edge first or spine first?

You like the chosera over the DMT? I've heard Really positive things on Chos 1k from knife guys, but I've hesitated to get into low grit synths again beyond the DMT's which have been reliable albeit not perfect.

 

[rob_NH]

If you have experience with Shaptons and you like them, go with what you know. Spending a bit more money for consistency and predictability is always a good trade-off. Me, I went with DMT 1.2 k for bevels, Norton 4k/8k, and a Cnat when I started out. Passable shaves, invested about $120. After a few months I added CrOx on balsa, and stuck with that for almost 2 years. CrOx was sharper and smoother, but not smooth enough for me. Then coticules entered the mix, my shave quality went through the roof, and I've done that ever since. I now finish on AlumOx on the coti and it is smoooooooth. Sold my original setup, bought a Chosera 1k for bevels. Of course I've spent a metric f-ton of money getting to this point, having gone through 4 or 5 cotis and a couple BBW. The moral of the story, you dunno what you like until you try it.

Spine wear is a normal part of the honing process. You can always tape if you want to keep them pristine (but at least search the forums and see the various pros and cons of taping, because over time your bevel angle changes if you tape).

I was wondering about taping and the change that would put on the bevel angle. I am not afraid tyo let a tool wear. It is just that, a tool, not a museum piece. Thanks for the tips.

 

[Slash McCoy]

True, but like carts vs straights, films can get expensive in the long term.
It's a very low initial cost, where traditional hones will be $200-$400 for a set, but with stones, once you're set, you're set for many years unless you want to try something different/new.
Films are dirt cheap, but how long do they last?
Would I be able to hone my 7 blades on one set of films?

Absolutely. A sheet can be cut into three pieces. Each piece is good for a dozen or more razors. Check out the prices from www.thorlabs.com. Oh, and the thorlabs sheets can be cut into 3 or even 4 pieces depending on your preference. You do the math. It is very economical unless you are honing like a dozen razors a day. And remember, hones wear out, too. But even if stones lasted forever, again, I will let you do the math... it would take a long time to realize any savings by going with a full set of rocks instead of film.

Many film users also keep a coarse stone or two for edge repair and rough bevel setting, because the 12u film can be pretty slow, and coarser films are somewhat hard to source. I often use a set of cheap diamond plates from Harbor Freight ($12) for heavy steel removal because they are wicked fast. I keep an old 1k/6k combo because it is nice and big, and the 1k side is good for setting a rough bevel that makes short work of the 12u film stage. So you don't have to be all one or the other. I would not be surprised to hear from someone who runs through a progression of synthetics or does the mid-progression work with a fast coti, and finishes with 1u film. I personally have my best results doing only the coarse work with stones and all the rest with film.

I think RickBoone1 was selling kits with a couple pieces of each commonly used grit of films, and that would be a good way to check it out if you don't want to spring for Thor Labs 10 sheet minimum order. Then all you need is a $5 polished marble tile for a lapping plate. I use the 4" x 12" bullnose tile from Home Depot. Give it a try some time. I guarantee you will be getting edges better than from your 12k by the third attempt.

 

[Danricgro]

I agree films are a really cost effective way to go. I put a fantastic edge on a TI razor the first time I ever tried films. Not that I know much but I would not hesitate to recommend films.

Bottom line is just pick out a sound system then take the time and patience to learn how to use it. Oh, and don't be afraid to come on here and ask questions!

 

[Slash McCoy]

are you saying you lay the razor flat on the stone to work it? Like lapping the back of a chisel or plane iron? This seems like it would be very easy to do compared to learning to freehand sharpen the bevel edges of those same tools. Wouldn't this wear down the side of the razor over time though?

Is there a link to a youtube video?

Does anyone use shapton stones? I love them in the woodshop.

Yes, you get some wear on the spine. You MUST get some wear on the spine. The edge and the spine must wear in proportion to each other so that the bevel angle remains more or less constant. The bevel angle is somewhat critical. Under 15 degrees and you can get a harsh and unstable edge, depending on the steel. Over 18 degrees and you have a sluggish shaver. The sweet spot is around 16 to 16-1/2 degrees. So obviously if you keep wearing the edge away, reducing the width of the blade, if the spine does not wear proportionally, eventually your bevel becomes noticeably more obtuse. I say eventually because this is a slow process. But remember, the razor should be good for a couple hundred years, usable for several generations to come. Why ruin it in only a few years? Even then, it can be straightened out but better to just accept the spine wear and know that it is a good thing. I say this because some honers like to put electrical tape on the spine of their razors in an effort to prevent spine wear, and this of course saves the spine from wear but does nothing to save the edge from wear, so over the course of years the bevel angle is changed. (I am speaking of course only of hollow ground razors... wedges are an entirely different animal and you would normally tape a wedge during the finishing stage, at least) Of course, you CAN tape the spine... it is your razor, after all.

Shaptons are used but Nortons and Naniwas are more commonly used, as far as synthetic rocks go. For naturals, Belgian Coticules are most commonly used, but they are expensive in larger sizes. However this expense is tempered somewhat by the fact that a coti can replace 2 or 3 rocks in the synthetic progression because it can act as a coarser or finer stone through use of thick or thin slurry, or water. Also sometimes used as a finisher is the 12k Chinese Natural, or C12k in badger-speak. These stones are not really fast cutters even for 12k stones, but still much faster than a hard Arkansas and they are very cheap, even in big sizes.

Personally, for the beginner especially, I recommend film. $20 will get your foot in the door, and it is quick and easy to get your first crazy sharp edge. Look for Blix's thread entitled, "Lapping Film... Try It!" in the search thingie for this site.