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McVeyMac/phat Gold Dollar Honing Experiment and Practice

My friend phat and I have buddied up and have become honing partners. The approach is that we each would purchase a Gold Dollar 100, hone it, and send it to the other for shaving. Then we would provide feedback for each other regarding the resulting shave. What we have yet to decide is how many times we would send these back and fourth after honing, but when we are finished, we are each going to PIF them, me in the U.S. and phat in Canada. Below is a picture of the finished product that is now shave ready and about to ship to phat for his evaluation.



The Gold Dollar on first appearance is rather crude in the grinding, especially in the transition from the stabilizer to the tang. The stabilizer is fairly large and heavy. I am not sure if this razor would be considered a 1/2 or a 1/4 ground, but it has some heft to it. Last night I took the GD to the hones, and I started out with a Chosera 1K. My progression was Chosera 1K, Chosera 3K, Naniwa SS 8K and finish on a new Translucent Ark that I have been breaking in. This is the first razor off of this stone.

Upon starting to hone, I noticed a couple of issues with the GD that I found to be problematic. First, the razor had a significant smirk (1/2 of a smile) at the toe. Second, one side of the stabilizer protruded laterally and hit the stone when I was trying to hone the heel. I went through a series of sweeping X strokes trying to get the stone to hit the edge at the toe. During this process, the stabilizer rode up on the stone for a significant number of strokes, even though I was doing my best to avoid this. Second, no matter how much I swept my X stroke, I was not able to get a scratch pattern on the edge out to the toe. After repeated attempts I became frustrated and determined that desperate measures were call for. First, I started grinding away at the stabilizer to remove the protrusion. Second, I bread knifed the blade until it was flat almost to the toe, at least far enough that I felt I could reach it with sweeping X strokes. All in all, I have several hours on this razor on the 1K stone. I probably grinded on this thing way more than I needed to, but this is the approach that I took

I was able to get the bevel set out to the Toe using sweeping X strokes. Straight strokes did not reach the toe on either side indicating that there is either still a bit of a smirk, or the toe is thinner than the rest of the blade. My calipers are telling me that the spine at the toe end is about 5/1,000 or so thinner than at the heel, so this is probably due to some remaining smirk.

Today I did a shave test, and the GD worked really well. It is pretty much a silent whisker whacker, with no discernable audio feedback. I strong hand cheek and neck WTG, and also did a small problem area on the side of my chin ATG to test the result. The razor performed very well both WTG and ATG, so I wiped it off, set it down, and finished the shave with my other razor. After the shave I sanitized, dried, stropped 30/60 fabric/leather, oiled it, took some pictures of it, and now it is ready to ship to phat for a good tire kicking.

As an FYI, I do have a second one of these that are straight from the factory as well, so any constructive criticism as far as how to deal with the problem areas from any of you honemeisters is greatly appreciated. Once phat and I are done with these two, I will likely get out the second GD and have a go with it. This GD sure is not pretty, but it shaved very well, and will likely do so for many years to come under normal use and honing. But I surely did put some significant hone wear on this sucker.











Now it has some unique charm, it remains to be seen if it is worth having
 
Cool - best of luck with your honing venture. Seems like a nice plan.
IME - honewear on a GD is sorta mandatory. Last one I had needed a good session on a 325 DMT to get everything sorta ok. It really needed more spine-width reduction but I got tired of clearing swarf off the diamond plate.
 

rockviper

I got moves like Jagger
Great idea on the swaps. Some very nice pictures and a great write-up as well. Good stuff! :thumbup1:
 
MY experience is exactly as Keith says. I hone up a lot of #66 and sell them, and every one needs a session on the dmt.

Most need at LEAST as much grinding as you did. Normally I don't even go that far as it's time consuming, but the more you straighten/flatten on the DMT the easier the rest of the honing is. Just don't use too much pressure when flattening, as tempting as it is.
 
Cool - best of luck with your honing venture. Seems like a nice plan.
IME - honewear on a GD is sorta mandatory. Last one I had needed a good session on a 325 DMT to get everything sorta ok. It really needed more spine-width reduction but I got tired of clearing swarf off the diamond plate.

MY experience is exactly as Keith says. I hone up a lot of #66 and sell them, and every one needs a session on the dmt.

Most need at LEAST as much grinding as you did. Normally I don't even go that far as it's time consuming, but the more you straighten/flatten on the DMT the easier the rest of the honing is. Just don't use too much pressure when flattening, as tempting as it is.

Hey guys, thank you for the feedback. I tried to ignore the stabilizer and hone up to it, but the dang thing kept hitting the stone. About half way through I was wishing that I started with the DMT. On the next one, I definitely will start there. I have the 325 lapping DMT, plus a course/medium combo DMT that I forget the grits on plus a lone fine DMT. I did use the 325 DMT a little on the back side of the stabilizer to shape it.
 
MY experience is exactly as Keith says. I hone up a lot of #66 and sell them, and every one needs a session on the dmt.

Most need at LEAST as much grinding as you did. Normally I don't even go that far as it's time consuming, but the more you straighten/flatten on the DMT the easier the rest of the honing is. Just don't use too much pressure when flattening, as tempting as it is.

I think that if I tried to make these shave ready and all I had was 1K Chosera, I would have to ask $200 for it to break even, considering my time. The next one will definitely see the DMTs first. Thanks for the tip on not using too much pressure!

Walt
 
Wow. your pictures really show the problem area allright - nothing of mine that I've had to work with so far has so much stuff to get in the way back there.

I'm actually not bad at the sweeping X, probably why I've managed to do well with the smiley heifflor wedge I have. but that looks like
there's so much extra stuff there I'll still run into it..

I don't even *have* a DMT :) I have a 1K norton, and 15 um diamond film. Methinks I might make a trip to Lee Valley to find something a little coarser to attack this with initially...

Hopefully my GD is there when I get back from this road trip and I can get it ready for you..
 
Well, it can be done with a 1K, but plan to spend some time. I already have the DMTs, so it is a no brainer. Why I did not switch over to DMTs for this one can only be chalked up to stubbornness I guess.
 
There is a knife maker that probably many of you are aware of called Murray Carter. Murray is of Canadian descent, but decades ago when he was a young man, he went to Japan to live as he was fascinated with their culture. While there, he became an apprentice of a bladesmith for about 6 years. In one of his forging videos, he quotes his Sensei "Forge More, Grind Less." The point being made that the closer you can come to the final shape with the hammer, the better. With the Gold Dollar, I would say "Grind More, Hone Less." But, for $9.99 from China with shipping, what can you expect?

The spine of the subject razor is still pretty hefty and I am sure it could use some more thinning. I need to take some measurements and determine the bevel angle, but I suspect it is on the high side of shaveable. On the second GD I intend to do quite a bit of this to understand what the cutting angle is to start with, and then determine a suitable target angle. The subject razor that is going to phat was done by the seat of the pants. If he is not impressed with the results, this would be my next modification to the subject razor to bring it in line.

Edit: I don't think that I will end up with a full wedge, but I might :eek2:.
 
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The spine of the subject razor is still pretty hefty and I am sure it could use some more thinning. I need to take some measurements and determine the bevel angle, but I suspect it is on the high side of shaveable. On the second GD I intend to do quite a bit of this to understand what the cutting angle is to start with, and then determine a suitable target angle.
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I've done this with a Gold Dollar and a Double Arrow, bringing the bevel angle down to ~ 16 degrees. No question that the results are highly subjective, but I'm convinced that I like these more acute angels better. There is a lot of steel to remove to accomplish this. I did it by taping the EDGE and then a few strokes on a flat coarse stone to show the high spots on the spine, grind high spots on bench grinder, hit the flat stone to show high spots, repeat.
 
I've done this with a Gold Dollar and a Double Arrow, bringing the bevel angle down to ~ 16 degrees. No question that the results are highly subjective, but I'm convinced that I like these more acute angels better. There is a lot of steel to remove to accomplish this. I did it by taping the EDGE and then a few strokes on a flat coarse stone to show the high spots on the spine, grind high spots on bench grinder, hit the flat stone to show high spots, repeat.

Thank you very much for the input here. I have yet to measure and calculate the resulting angle on the one I did for phat. That might be a good project before I mail it off to him. He is in the U.S. for work all week, so I have time. If it is ridiculously high, I might just take care of this before sending it out. It was cutting whiskers comfortably, but being new to this, I am not sure that I would have felt something >20-21 degrees inclusive.
 
I think my GD was in the neighborhood of 23 degrees. The spine was S shaped so it was hard to really measure, but just using measurements it was 22 degrees and the S shape could only increase the angle. It did shave quite well for being so obtuse. I liked it better at 16 degrees.

I would leave yours at the present angle so that phat can feel it as is. Have him re hone it as is and you sample his honing, then reduce the bevel angle and repeat. It's all for fun anyway. See what you both think of the different bevel angles. I think it makes quite a difference, others claim to not feel it. I'll stay tuned.
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
Thanks to Phat and McVeyMac for the thread. Doing a factory GD 208 today, my first really factory GD. When it arrived, it wasn't dangerous... I measured the spine thickness and it was about 0.005" thicker at the heel and the angle seemed to be about 18 degrees. I thinned the spine at the heel slightly with a DMT and decided to go with the stock angle. I've certainly had other razors at 18 degrees that shaved fine. I can take it off later but you can't put metal back on. The edge has a noticeable smile to it.

The non-show side honed up pretty normally, but on the show side normal honing strokes did not hit the last 1" of the toe, slightly (sparklies), and the last 3/16" of the heel, fairly significantly (bright line). I did all this in about 1-1/2 hours on a Chosera 600 to go slowly so I could see and feel what I was doing better than going at it with something more aggressive since this is a learning experience for me, and of the few GDs I've done, I've seen the same problems in other vintage razors from many countries, just not as bad and not all in one razor!

So I'm about to do the final finisher and have good even HHT along the edge off my pre-finisher suita. The spine wear looks about like everyone else's here.

Cheers, Steve
 
I think my GD was in the neighborhood of 23 degrees. The spine was S shaped so it was hard to really measure, but just using measurements it was 22 degrees and the S shape could only increase the angle. It did shave quite well for being so obtuse. I liked it better at 16 degrees.

I would leave yours at the present angle so that phat can feel it as is. Have him re hone it as is and you sample his honing, then reduce the bevel angle and repeat. It's all for fun anyway. See what you both think of the different bevel angles. I think it makes quite a difference, others claim to not feel it. I'll stay tuned.

Good suggestion. I might just measure it to see what the angle is.

Thanks to Phat and McVeyMac for the thread. Doing a factory GD 208 today, my first really factory GD. When it arrived, it wasn't dangerous... I measured the spine thickness and it was about 0.005" thicker at the heel and the angle seemed to be about 18 degrees. I thinned the spine at the heel slightly with a DMT and decided to go with the stock angle. I've certainly had other razors at 18 degrees that shaved fine. I can take it off later but you can't put metal back on. The edge has a noticeable smile to it.

The non-show side honed up pretty normally, but on the show side normal honing strokes did not hit the last 1" of the toe, slightly (sparklies), and the last 3/16" of the heel, fairly significantly (bright line). I did all this in about 1-1/2 hours on a Chosera 600 to go slowly so I could see and feel what I was doing better than going at it with something more aggressive since this is a learning experience for me, and of the few GDs I've done, I've seen the same problems in other vintage razors from many countries, just not as bad and not all in one razor!

So I'm about to do the final finisher and have good even HHT along the edge off my pre-finisher suita. The spine wear looks about like everyone else's here.

Cheers, Steve
Thanks much for the input Steve. I saw a similar difference in the spine width at the toe with mine. For phat and me, this project is all about lerning. You and bluesman have contributed to that learning,

Thanks,

Walt
 
Okay, thanks. Misunderstood what was being implied.
Sorry, you know what happens when you assume. As already stated DMT bonds diamonds to steel and other media to make an abrasive surface to hone from. Grits can range from 50 to over 1,000. I have from 325 to 1,000. Sorry for the oversight on my part.
 
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