Lather Eating Brush Phenomenon

[sparraz]

Greetings!

I am still pretty new to DE shaving, but I have been doing pretty well I think. I have three brushes, my first was an "Escali" Pure Badger I bought from Amazon (made by Tweezerman I think). Then after a lot of reading here, I bought a Semogue 830. Then, I recently picked up a synthetic Omega Hi Brush for travel as I spent 10 days in FL. Before I left for my trip, I was getting great results from my Semogue 830. It seemed to be breaking in nicely. Before my trip, I cleaned it following the directions in the SHAVEWIKI, which included the use of a little vinegar before the final rinse. I then let it dry out while I practiced my last few shaves at home before the trip with the Omega, which was different, but not bad. Well, the Omega was very good for the trip, glad I got it. I was excited to get home to my Semogue though. Also, a Georgetown Pottery G20 had arrived in my absence. So, my first shave at home I predictably used the G20 per the standard recommended instructions and my 830. The lather was nice and warm, but did not last for 4 passes. I thought maybe the water was too hot, so I modified my prep a little. The next shave I didn't refill with hot water after my shower - the lather still disappeared. I was again using the 830. I was perplexed and was wondering if this scuttle business wasn't all it was cracked up to be. So today I didn't shave but set up an experiment. I soaked my 830 for about 8 minutes, figuring that was about how long my showers are. I squeezed out the brush and gave it a light shake to get off the excess water as usual and loaded the brush with about 200 strokes. This time, still thinking heat was my enemy, I not only didn't refill the G20, I didn't sit it in a sink full of hot water during the "shower." Lather disappeared faster than ever - I couldn't even get a lather for my first pass. I then grabbed the Omega, wet it and whipped up a great lather in the scuttle. So it seems I have identified the source of the difficulty is the 830. It was not doing this previously, which is what is so perplexing. I googled "lather problems boar brushes" and found a discussion (elsewhere) about LEP (Lather Eating Phenomenon), which suggests that over-soaking boar brushes can cause this. However, I can't believe 8 minutes would be "over soaking." I am seeing this with my VDH Luxury puck and my home blend of Col Conk and Arko as well as Proraso Green. Has anyone else experienced this? Any suggestions how to get my 830 back on track?

Thanks!

 

[ColtRevolver]

I do what most don't....I don't rinse the soap out of mine after use and don't soak them before the next use. I just dip them in water to reactivate the dry soap and make lather. My go to soaps are VDH Luxury and Arko. I get plenty of lather from either.

 

[dpm802]

Any suggestions how to get my 830 back on track?

Switch to face lathering.

Scuttles are neat, but after the initial novelty wore off, I found they were more trouble than they were worth. So I sold mine (a DB Brush Scuttle with matching lather bowl) on the BST and haven't missed it since.

Is it possible that your brush is making plenty of lather, but its disappearing inside the knot? This is quite normal, and just requires a gentle squeeze at the base to bring it back out and put it on your face where it belongs.

 

[grantmm]

That will help cause mineral buildup in the bristles/knot. I really wouldn't advise not washing the brush out after use.

 

[sparraz]

I do what most don't....I don't rinse the soap out of mine after use and don't soak them before the next use. I just dip them in water to reactivate the dry soap and make lather. My go to soaps are VDH Luxury and Arko. I get plenty of lather from either.

Interesting - are you using a boar brush?

 

[ColtRevolver]

I use both boar and badger the same way....Oh yeah, I also just face lather.

 

[sparraz]

Switch to face lathering.

Scuttles are neat, but after the initial novelty wore off, I found they were more trouble than they were worth. So I sold mine (a DB Brush Scuttle with matching lather bowl) on the BST and haven't missed it since.

Is it possible that your brush is making plenty of lather, but its disappearing inside the knot? This is quite normal, and just requires a gentle squeeze at the base to bring it back out and put it on your face where it belongs.

I may eventually come to the same conclusion regarding the scuttle. Regarding the disappearing lather, there was nothing to squeeze out. I could experiment with it again to see, but having just used and rinsed it out, does it need to dry out completely before I use it again or could I lather with it again tonight to see what happens?

 

[dpm802]

I may eventually come to the same conclusion regarding the scuttle. Regarding the disappearing lather, there was nothing to squeeze out. I could experiment with it again to see, but having just used and rinsed it out, does it need to dry out completely before I use it again or could I lather with it again tonight to see what happens?

If the brush is fully broken in, you can repeat the lather-building immediately after rinsing.

If its not broken in yet, it will continue to give disappointing lather until it reaches its peak performance, usually about 2 or 3 months from the first time you use it. During the break-in process, its the drying time that makes the bristles split and the tips soften. Try to give it 48 hours in between each wet-down until you are satisfied with the lather-making and how it feels on your face.

 

[dpm802]

You say you were getting good results from the 830 before your trip. How were you lathering then, prior to the arrival of the G20? It may be that the scuttle is causing the problem, not the brush.

Instead of filling it with hot water, which seems to break down the lather, try cold-water shaving. Fill it with cold water and set it in the fridge for an hour or the freezer for about 15 minutes, but don't let the water freeze totally or it may crack. An ice cold shave feels great during the dog days of summer, and you may find that scuttle to be best kept for certain seasonal usage.

 

[shevek]

Use more soap

 

[sparraz]

If the brush is fully broken in, you can repeat the lather-building immediately after rinsing.

If its not broken in yet, it will continue to give disappointing lather until it reaches its peak performance, usually about 2 or 3 months from the first time you use it. During the break-in process, its the drying time that makes the bristles split and the tips soften. Try to give it 48 hours in between each wet-down until you are satisfied with the lather-making and how it feels on your face.

My brush is still pretty new, I'll let it dry. Thanks!

 

[sparraz]

You say you were getting good results from the 830 before your trip. How were you lathering then, prior to the arrival of the G20? It may be that the scuttle is causing the problem, not the brush.

Instead of filling it with hot water, which seems to break down the lather, try cold-water shaving. Fill it with cold water and set it in the fridge for an hour or the freezer for about 15 minutes, but don't let the water freeze totally or it may crack. An ice cold shave feels great during the dog days of summer, and you may find that scuttle to be best kept for certain seasonal usage.

Another difference is that I was rotating brushes so the 830 was drying out more between uses - I will get back to doing that.
I'll try the cold approach after it dries out thoroughly. Thanks again!

 

[sparraz]

Use more soap

I can try, but 200+ strokes usually loads it up pretty good...

 

[cogbog]

I had a similar problem with my two boars (Semogue 1305 and SOC). They didn't produce much lather at first. After a while they started making more and by now they make/hold far more than I need. I think it's just part of the break-in process.

 

[sparraz]

I had a similar problem with my two boars (Semogue 1305 and SOC). They didn't produce much lather at first. After a while they started making more and by now they make/hold far more than I need. I think it's just part of the break-in process.

I hope so - thanks!

 

[sparraz]

Instead of filling it with hot water, which seems to break down the lather, try cold-water shaving. Fill it with cold water and set it in the fridge for an hour or the freezer for about 15 minutes, but don't let the water freeze totally or it may crack. An ice cold shave feels great during the dog days of summer, and you may find that scuttle to be best kept for certain seasonal usage.

I wound up shaving last night. I left the Semogue 830 to dry and used my Escali pure badger. I took your advice and tried a cold water shave. I filled the G20 with water from the refrigerator and filled the bowl with ice and water, in which I soaked my brush. After a shower I face lathered with Proraso Green and went to work with a Gillette 7 O'clock Black on its 6th shave. I dumped the ice cubes in the sink so I could get a real ice cold splash between passes. I used the G20 like a brush scuttle, just leaving the brush in there to keep it cold. I rinsed my 34C in the ice water as well.

I had read posts here from members who swear by cold water shaving and I knew I would eventually give it a try. Well, I was blown away! It was a very different and refreshing experience and easily one of the best (if not the best) shaves I have ever had! No nicks, not even the least weeper anywhere. I can tell when I slap on the AS about any minor irritation; after last night's shave, Pinaud Clubman had zero sting - felt almost like cool water. The shave was a high DFS. I have never had a true BBS, but this was very close. I completed 4 passes in far less time than my usual, I am sure the face lathering helped in that regard. I didn't attempt any touch ups, and wound up with a closer shave than when I do.

I had plenty of lather for three passes, but I needed a little more cream to finish the last pass. I think I did not spend enough time working up the lather on my face before the first pass (I normally don't face lather). I am going to try this approach with the Semogue Tuesday (really let it dry out) and see how that goes.


Excellent suggestions sir! Thanks!

 

[NSmalls]

My suggestion is to invest in some better soap. Aside from the Arko, most of the soaps in your den are mediocre at best on a performance level. Yes that's right I said it, proraso is not as good as most people make it out to be. If I were you I would pick up a tub of Cella, RazoRock, and Tabac. All classics to have in the rotation and I can almost guarantee that you won't have any trouble making lather with these ones. I have found that I make better lather in a scuttle than on my face because I find it easier to control. I always use WARM water with a quality soap and never have any problems even though my water is hard. If you can, try to load your soap for about a minute. It's better to have too much lather than not enough in my opinion. The semogue 830 is one of the best boars out there and I don't think the brush is to blame here. Best of luck to you sir.

 

[sparraz]

My suggestion is to invest in some better soap. Aside from the Arko, most of the soaps in your den are mediocre at best on a performance level. Yes that's right I said it, proraso is not as good as most people make it out to be. If I were you I would pick up a tub of Cella, RazoRock, and Tabac. All classics to have in the rotation and I can almost guarantee that you won't have any trouble making lather with these ones. I have found that I make better lather in a scuttle than on my face because I find it easier to control. I always use WARM water with a quality soap and never have any problems even though my water is hard. If you can, try to load your soap for about a minute. It's better to have too much lather than not enough in my opinion. The semogue 830 is one of the best boars out there and I don't think the brush is to blame here. Best of luck to you sir.

The three soaps you mention are all on my wish list right now. I suspect there is a combination of factors going on here. I do like your thinking, as it will help me justify picking up a new soap ;-)

 

[shevek]

I can try, but 200+ strokes usually loads it up pretty good...

So 200+ should amount to about a minute of loading, roughly. I did a test and was able to swirl 35x comfortably in 10 secs. I don't have an 830, but I do have a 1305 which is basically the same knot with a different handle. I've never had an issue loading this brush.... It's not overly big, dense, or floppy. I've used the 1305 with all kinds of soaps, and had no issues using it with a scuttle. Yes, scuttle temperatures are an additional variable so testing without heat is a good idea. I've used the 1305 with many soaps, but never with the 3 soaps you mentioned. So I tend to agree with NSmalls, it's probably the soap. If you're going to stick with VDH, Conk and Proraso, you still may want to try increasing the load to perhaps 1.5 minutes. Seems like a lot, but really, you need the brush to have some thick protolather before you switch to the bowl.

 

[sparraz]

So 200+ should amount to about a minute of loading, roughly. I did a test and was able to swirl 35x comfortably in 10 secs. I don't have an 830, but I do have a 1305 which is basically the same knot with a different handle. I've never had an issue loading this brush.... It's not overly big, dense, or floppy. I've used the 1305 with all kinds of soaps, and had no issues using it with a scuttle. Yes, scuttle temperatures are an additional variable so testing without heat is a good idea. I've used the 1305 with many soaps, but never with the 3 soaps you mentioned. So I tend to agree with NSmalls, it's probably the soap. If you're going to stick with VDH, Conk and Proraso, you still may want to try increasing the load to perhaps 1.5 minutes. Seems like a lot, but really, you need the brush to have some thick protolather before you switch to the bowl.

I can certainly spend more time loading up, although as i said I think there might be a few other issues: the break-in, not drying out, temps, and so on. I had no trouble building a 4 pass lather tonight with my Omega. I'm going to go back to the 830 Tuesday without a hot scuttle and see where I'm at. I'm totally open to new soaps, I will definitely give that a try.