Kombucha-thoughts on making it

[The Knize]

I know there have been other threads on kombucha, but none too lately. So I thought I would start a new one.

Seems to be something of a "hot" beverage, with lots of towns now having their own local maker, and there even being kombucha bars. (I have never had one of the intentionally alcoholic kombuchas I have read about.)

I love this stuff, particularly that made by a fairly local outfit in Marshall, Virginia, MTO Kombucha. Although, I think I have been spoiled in that I used to very much like the GT brand, especially the versions with chia seeds, but nowadays GT does not seem to appeal to me.

I started trying to brew my own about six months ago, but have not been all that happy with the results until just recently when I came back to it. At this point I have a scoby that takes up most of the 2.5 gallon container, and I am doing a batch at a time rather than continuous. With the scoby so large, two or three days seems to be longer enough to turn out a batch. I think this scoby is a combination of something I ordered on EBay, plus something I grew myself from an unflavored MTO kombucha. It might be just the MTO. I found that neither a scoby I grew from an unflavored GT kombucha nor a scoby I got from EBay by itself, produced as good a flavor as this combination does. I also found that trying to run in a continuous batch made for a pretty acidic product.

I have been keeping the "brewer" unit in a cabinet over the fridge, where I am guessing the temperature is 80 degrees or more. The spigout in the unit long ago clogged up and I am too lazy to clean it out.

I was flavoring the kombucha by drawing it off into bottles or jars and letting it sit with some frozen fruit, star anise, or ginger, or some combination. But over the past couple of batches I have been drinking it pretty much straight. My efforts at fruit flavoring never came close to MTO's, although I think the underlying kombucha is finally getting pretty close.

I have not had any of it get very, or any, carbonated. Not sure I like it particularly carbonated. The MTO carbonation is very low when you buy it, if there is any there at all. I am not sure there is.

I am using some black tea I got at an Indian market for about $3.49 a pound. Seems to work as well as much better and more expensive tea I have also used, but I assume every refinement can help.

Anyway, I found this effort of making my own more frustrating that I expected. It is not that much work once one gets going, but timing seems to be pretty important. However, it sure saves some money, and assuming I have figured out how to make a good product and the increase in quality lately is not just random, this is working out. I suppose making beer was a certain amount or more work and needed more equipment, but I do not think I have ever made a batch of beer I thought was of inferior quality to what I could readily buy. Not so for kombucha!

My wife is making milk kefir these days, after starting with just some tablets bought at the food coop. It is excellent, although she has not bothered trying to get to to carbonate. Seems strange to me that kefir would be the easier home brew!

Anyone else have any thoughts on making, or for that matter drinking, kombucha?

 

[Alacrity59]

Love the subject. I've considered making it myself. What teas are folk using with this? What are the easiest methods?

 

[The Knize]

Love the subject. I've considered making it myself. What teas are folk using with this? What are the easiest methods?

Lots of recipes and descriptions of how to make on-line. Basically you need sugar-sweetened tea, scoby, and a warm dark place. If one has a good source of kombucha one really likes, and is patient, I would be tempted to develop a scoby from a non-favored version of that kombucha rather than, say, buying a scoby. See instructions on how to do this various places on-line. As far as I can tell, kombucha is not going to go seriously bad so long as the overall medium the scoby is in is acidic. That way, mold will not invade. Any actual mold and you will probably have to toss the whole thing. Although, bits of tea and maybe other things will form dark spots that could be mistaken for mold that are surely not mold.

On the other hand, anyone already making kombucha should be able to give you a scoby.

As I indicated below, I have been using exclusively black tea and inexpensive black tea at that, lately. You read all sorts of things about that, by the way, with some saying that it is good to use green tea, or at least some green tea, and others saying to use black tea only.

 

[The Knize]

Maybe I should have put this thread in the Cafe!

I just re-filled the kombucha brewer this morning. I think I am going to leave it out on the counter this time so that the process is at a lower temperature. I am wondering whether that will result in a smoother result. Something like lager versus ale. The scoby is so large now, I do not have any concerns about turning batches around quickly.

 

[Alacrity59]

I agree Rob. It fits there too.

 

[YetiDave]

If you lower the temp you're just slowing down fermentation, flavour will be pretty much the same

 

[The Knize]

If you lower the temp you're just slowing down fermentation, flavour will be pretty much the same

Are you speaking from experience, research, or other? This last batch that I am doing at regular room temperature rather than in a warm place is definitely going slower. Remarkably slower given the size of the scoby in relation to the amount of liquid.

Whether it is developing fewer of what I would call "esters" if I were making ale is not clear yet. What I might call esters are very low, but the sugar content remains high so far, according to may tasting it.

I have never made pickles or anything similar, such as sauerkraut. Sorry to be lazy and not look it up, but what sorts of roles does temperature play in other fermentations. I would say one does not want the temperature to get too high in beer or winemaking and at least beer is very sensitive to fermentation temperature.

 

[DrColossus11]

If you lower the temp you're just slowing down fermentation, flavour will be pretty much the same

Lower the temp doesn't always slow fermentation. It really depends on the organism being used to ferment and the optimal temp range for it to do its work. Fermenting out of optimal temp range can produce all sorts of flavor issues.

 

[The Knize]

For what it is worth, lower temp did seem to produce a smoother beverage. Fewer "esters" to my palate.

It did slow up the process. Amazing in that I have a scoby that takes up half the 2.5 gallon container.

I am just terrible about swapping out fresh tea though. There is a certain hassle factor to this, which I guess explains why they can charge $4 a pint. Good stuff, though. At least what I am making and what MTO makes. Not sure I even like GT except for two or so flavors anymore!

 

[Edcculus]

I've been thinking about getting into making Kombucha. I've homebrewed beer and cider for years, so the basics of fermentation are not new to me.

I'm getting mixed advice from the web. Can I just start my first batch with a bottle (or two) of unpasteurized unflavored store bought kombucha? If so is it as simple as brewing up the batch of sweet tea, letting it cool then "pitching" the live brew? If so, what are good brands to look for? I see a lot of people reference GT, but I don't think its available in my area. I live in South Carolina, and have a While Foods, Fresh Market and Earth Fare in town.

I don't think I'd do continuous brew. Does the SCOBY save well in the fridge? If so methods? For subsequent batches, it sounds easy enough to take a bottle (or equivalent volume) of the previous batch, and add it to the fresh sweet tea along with the SCOBY that developed on the last batch. I've also read that each batch creates new "growth" on the SCOBY, and that its best to separate the oldest part from the new layer, and only use the newest portion for your next batch. Kind of like washing and reusing yeast in beer. You only want the yeast to go through a few generations because they eventually change from the original flavor and fermentation profile.

I know you can do that for apple cider vinegar by just buying the unfiltered organic stuff and avoid having to buy a mother. I've done similar for yogurt by just adding about a cup of a good quality live culture greek yogurt to the warm milk.

Also, how strict is sanitation? I'll likely just use StarSan on the fermentation vessel and any utensil that touches the brew since thats what I'm comfortable with. I read no air lock because the bacteria portion of the culture like oxygen. Since there are all kinds of wild fermentation going on here, I'm assuming sanitation isn't as critical as it is for beer brewing, but I can't imagine you want to be totally lax either.

Thanks for any advice!

 

[The Knize]

Those are excellent questions about making kombucha and I afraid I do not know the answers to most of them.

I have never heard of anyone making kombucha by simply pitching a bottle or two of it into a fresh batch of tea without developing a SCOBY first. I have developed SCOBYs from adding fresh tea to existing kombucha. It takes awhile and I had to go through several changes/new rounds of tea before getting a SCOBY of any size. Nothing hard about it though. I would not buy a SCOBY, unless I was in a hurry. I would not be afraid of buying and using one either.

I have thrown out huge portions of SCOBYs as they have become gigantic, but I sure do not throw away the old growth every time I make a new batch. But that does not mean I am doing it right. I do not keep SCOBYs in the fridge, but instead have gone long times with a very full sized SCOBY at room temp or above in a large vessel changing out the tea from time to time. I assume the tea the sits on the SCOBY that long is horrible and when I have started up making kombucha again, I have done a batch that I toss out to freshen up things. No idea whether this makes any sense.

I am not nearly as careful with sanitation as when making beer. I keep a good amount of a prior batch of kombucha in with a new batch, I guess I do a continuous process of a sort even though I pull off the majority of the old batch. I assume that keeps things acidic enough to keep away bad yeast and bacteria. A SCOBY strikes me as a very robust colony of organisms. I could be wrong. Beer seems much more delicate to me. I have frankly not thought about the SCOBY changing when reused. For that matter, I do not really understand why the new growth every time. Your analogy to beer yeasts make sense to me. I have never re-used beer yeast. I have always started with a freshly bought packet. I do let that yeast develop in a gallon jug before I toss it though. I have something of a sense that having a larger SCOBY rather than a smaller one so that the process is faster helps the end result.

I found differences in how kombucha came out depending on where the SCOBY "came from." I had more trouble developing a SCOBY from GT than from anything else and I did not like the result that much. I bought a SCOBY on EBay that was fine. It was small and did better as it grew. I also grew a SCOBY from my favorite brand of kombucha, MTO, which is made in Northern Virginia. It makes the best kombucha I have made to my taste, which I suppose is not surprising. Actually, I would say that I have not managed to make as good a kombucha as MTO makes, although I think it is their flavoring process not the underlying kombucha that is better. Also, I suspect that their kombucha is rather mild as kombuchas go. GT used to be quite powerful. They all seem dumbed down from that, and I hate to say it but I prefer a softer, less aggressive kombucha myself. GT may be my least favorite brand at this point. But I find the MTO my favorite by a long shot, however, the MTO is sold in large mouth pint bottle with little or no carbonation, and I think I do like some carbonation.

My own kombucha has never had much carbonation. I have been using the same bottles MTO does. Maybe that is the problem. I never really worried about it, but as I think about it it would be nice to have some bubbles.

All of this said, I really fell off making kombucha after I got it down to what I was making I really liked, which took a while. Maybe I just drank too much of it in that process. I still buy it from time to time in the store, I suppose. I have a batch in the cupboard over the fridge that should have come out five days ago! So I have probably told you way more than I know and am not the guy to be rambling on about this.

Making kombucha seemed very easy compared to beer. I assume the process is much more forgiving. I sure never had anything that seemed questionable grow in one of my containers. I never had a batch of kombcha seem to taste like it was far off.

I will be very interested in hearing how it goes for you. Writing this makes me want to at least pull the batch I have in process. It is probably still good. If not a fresh batch tea in and I will have a good batch in a few days if I do not trim the SCOBY I have way back, which I am tempted to do after what you wrote. Thanks.

 

[Edcculus]

Thanks for the response! I was a bit rambling too, but it really helps. After reading this, and some more on the internet, it makes a lot more sense.

I found this link for making a SCOBY
http://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make-your-own-kombucha-scoby-cooking-lessons-from-the-kitchn-202596

Relative to beer making, making a SCOBY is similar to culturing yeast from a commercial beer. Lots of homebrewers do this. It was more common a few years back before companies like White Labs and Wyeast had such great varieties of yeast. You basically are making a throwaway batch of whatever you are brewing in order to propagate the yest, or in this case, the mixture of yeast and bacteria.

I was probably over thinking the actual use of the SCOBY part. I did read as well that if the brew starts to turn in a way that you aren't really fond of, just throw in a bottle of your favorite commercial non flavored Kombucha to balance out the microorganisms.

As far as bottling goes, I was planning on putting it into beer bottles and capping. Let it sit out for a while, cool and see if it carbonated. I was thinking very slight carbonation would be good. If that doesn't work, you can always add some extra priming sugar prior to bottleing just like brewing.

Now...I wonder if anyone has ever tried to use a SCOBY to make a sour beer, or a Berlinerweiss type blend (which usually has normal ale yeast, lactobacillus and sometimes brett)

 

[Edcculus]

Good lord, is this site trying to take people for a ride?
http://store.kombuchakamp.com/

Isn't a kombucha SCOBY essentially free? I know there would be some investments to be able to sell them on a commercial scale, but that just seems like highway robbery. A fool and their money I guess.

I read a few sources that commercial kombucha may not be the best source anymore. Apparently in 2010 they reforumlated because some commercial versions did not fall far enough down on the alcohol scale to be sold as a normal beverage. Not sure how accurate that is.

 

[BSAGuy]

OK. I'll bite. I have never heard of kombucha. Laugh away. What does it taste like?

 

[Cosmos Mariner]

OK. I'll bite. I have never heard of kombucha. Laugh away. What does it taste like?

Rot

 

[The Knize]

I have something of a beer brewing background, too, although you seem more advanced than I am. I think your thought process is good and I like your idea of how to get carbonation. It may be that simply putting it in capped bottles will do it, but I priming sugar would do it, if not.

<Apparently in 2010 they reforumlated because some commercial versions did not fall far enough down on the alcohol scale to be sold as a normal beverage.>

That is accurate. I do not know how it affects the SCOBY you can develop from the commercial versions. I do not know how they got the alcohol levels down.

I did not check out http://store.kombuchakamp.com/ this time around but I think I remember looking at that site pretty closely when I was first looking into making kombucha. I guess my impression was that what they had seemed to be of good quality and they knew what they were talking about, but were pretty expensive. I think I paid abut $8 maybe plus some shipping for a SCOBY on EBay, but I figured I was taking some risk as far as quality. In fact, the packaging leaked quite a bit in transit. Still worked.

I am not sure that $20 for a truly excellent SCOBY that you will never have to buy again and entails no risk, is not so expensive. How much does good brewing yeast go for these days? Do folks bother to reuse it or do most folks start with a fresh package each time. Anyway I sort of have the feeling that it is hard to make any money selling kombucha making supplies, but I like the idea of folks like that web site being around.

<Now...I wonder if anyone has ever tried to use a SCOBY to make a sour beer, or a Berlinerweiss type blend (which usually has normal ale yeast, lactobacillus and sometimes brett)>

I have no idea! Sour beers sounded real tough to make to me. I guess I assumed that the yeast and bacteria had to be just right. I suspect the yeast and bacteria has to be pretty specific to form a SCOBY for kombucha, too.

As far as what kombucha tastes like, it is rather sour, although various flavorings and I assume sweetners, overcome that to some extent. It can have a pretty distinct vinegar smell. It is make with tea and sugar fermented with yeast and bacteria so it has flavors like tea with lots of earthy type flavors and smells.

I like good kumbucha a lot. To me it is something of an adult beverage.

 

[Edcculus]

I did a bit more reading last night. After what I read, I'm going to pop over to Whole Foods at lunch. One poster apparently said that they found some good Kombucha there that they were able to get a good SCOBY going with. They were carded when trying to buy the bottle, which means that there must be versions floating around out there that do not comply, or at least cannot prove that every bottle meets the strict low alcohol laws.

As far as good yeast goes, its about $6-7 for a pack or vial. I do see your point though. Even at $30 for something that you can essentially use forever. If you buy a lot of commercial Kombucha, it will pay for itself in 1 batch.

People who really get into brewing (me) do what is called "yeast washing". Sounds complicated, but its just an easy way of saving all that great yeast that ends up at the bottom of the fermenter after you finish a batch. Its not recommended to go much past 3 generations. I can get enough washed yeast for 4 more batches off of the first batch. So, even if you wash once, it comes down to just over $1 per pack of yeas for all of the batches. SOME people even propagate yeast off of agar plates. If you grow yeast on a plate and store it right, you will never have to buy it again! Both methods DO require making a starter on a stir plate before pitching into the main batch though.

As far as taste goes...well I'm taking a bit of a gamble here because I've never had it. I love sour beers, especially berlinerweiss and flanders red, which both have a strong lacto, and acetic profile if they are aged for an extended amount of time.

 

[Edcculus]

Found an unpasteurized Kombucha at Whole Foods today. The brand was Buchi. They are local (regional) to me out of Asheville, NC. The bottle says in big bold letters to keep refrigerated, do not shake and that it can contain trace amounts of alcohol. Its also bottled in an amber beer bottle with a crimp cap. All of the others were in clear plastic bottles, and some even said "contains no alcohol". I feel pretty good about it. I guess we will know in 7-14 days. I keep my house at 75-78 during the summer, so I'm guessing I'll know sooner than later.

 

[The Knize]

Sounds like you are on your way!

<As far as taste goes...well I'm taking a bit of a gamble here because I've never had it. I love sour beers, especially berlinerweiss and flanders red, which both have a strong lacto, and acetic profile if they are aged for an extended amount of time.>

Wow. You are taking a gamble! Maybe you ought to try some of that Buchi before you start production. It does sound like a good brand.

I cannot say I have had Berlinerweiss or Flanders red, although I would have thought I had tried most every type of beer by now. I have certainly had a lot of German wheat beers. I have had Belgian lambics, which as I recall are powerfully sour indeed. I really think acetic is the right word for kombucha, that and sometimes, but not always, earthy. Even tannic, I suppose. Since it starts with tea, it has tea like earthy and tannic notes. But acetic or vinegary predominates, I would say. Refreshing stuff, to me. Complex. Nothing everyone is going to like. But I really like it. Kind of addictive. I admit that I usually have it with some sort of fruit infused in it.

 

[Edcculus]

I did buy an extra one. My wife and I split it when I got home from work. It's pretty much exactly how I expected it to taste. Tart, acetic and refreshing. I'd almost say it was very much like less tart apple cider vinegar, but that kind of makes it sound worse than it actually tastes. We both wanted another one, but I have to save it for making the SCOBY.