I have questions regarding the various steels used in kamisori razors and the different price points they come it. I asked sellers on eBay and they don’t even know… bizarre. Anyway I own one “henkotsu” it’s nice but it’s soft. I was wanting to upgrade to a quality kamisori with quality steel. Also, there are sellers on eBay they have all these various names and types but can’t even tell me what Steel they use or why they are special. I find that bizarre, so why should I buy you 90$ or 200$ razor if you don’t even m ow why it’s special? lol anyway help and information would greatly be appreciated. Thanks guys.
Kamisori steels and various values
- Thread starter Kamisori555
- Start date
Generally speaking, the kamisori steel that commands the highest price is tamahagane, but that is mainly down to the rarity and difficulty in manufacture than any performance benefit.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
You won’t go wrong with an Iwasaki Swedish steel. These can be had new at decent prices if you shop around.
- Thread starter
- #4
Yea. I heard about iwasaki is that a type or name because of steel or maker? **** has layers it’s like an onion.
Iwasaki is a maker, Shigeyoshi Iwasaki. He uses various types of steel.
- Thread starter
- #6
Thanks for your help! What is a good website to go to? For a new kamisori. Also what do you think of these ? Seams like a bunch of various steels in this lot. Is this trash a waste of money?
AS IS Kamisori Japanese Straight Razor or paper Knife Set 5 Henkotsu,へんこつ ユリカ 上 | eBay
NOT Honed, as is. You need to sharpen/ hone these Kamisori razors for use or as is, can use for as a paper knife. You may use them as a good knife, or can try to sharpen for using as razor. Very old Japanese straight razors.
www.ebay.com
Making Traditional Japanese Steel (Tamahagane)
Henkotsu are typically made from good quality very hard steel, White 1 or 2.
The only way a Henkotsu would be soft is if someone ruined the temper on a buffer.
Sometimes, someone assumes kamisori steel is soft because they are honing the Omote on a 1k and the Jigane strips off fast. A practice that leads to what @Bayamontate so aptly named "Omote Assasination".
We don't appraise razors on B&B, or evaluate auction sales.
Value of any razor is in the eye of the beholder. Selling price is one thing, actual value is determined by what someone wants to pay for it. Sometimes a price is set based on what the seller paid for it. Other times is can be set by what the market will bear. There isn't necessarily going to be a quantitative metric that spits out a price per gram. I've owned Tamagahane Kamisori that did not cost a lot, have also had blue steel Kamisori that cost a pretty penny.
Condition matters, rarity of the piece matters, size matters, NOS matters, brand matters, steel type can certainly matter but not always, presentation matters, and so on.
A typical Henkotsu make sell for notably more or less than a nearly identical Tosuke or Kikuokan for no apparent reason or perhaps some very good reasons. Each razor has to be evaluated on it's own, hypothetical pricing is a waste of time.
Many if not most of the auction-site sellers are just moving bulk product, have minimal knowledge. Same for the stone sellers. They're just buying bulk auction lots from clearing houses and parting the goods out on auction/selling platforms. Pricing is often based on what closed auctions ended at but since they don't know what they are holding or looking at or selling it's all guess work. The Onus is on the buyer to determine the 'worth' of the item.
If the buyer has no clue, then it's the blind leading the blind.
The only way a Henkotsu would be soft is if someone ruined the temper on a buffer.
Sometimes, someone assumes kamisori steel is soft because they are honing the Omote on a 1k and the Jigane strips off fast. A practice that leads to what @Bayamontate so aptly named "Omote Assasination".
We don't appraise razors on B&B, or evaluate auction sales.
Value of any razor is in the eye of the beholder. Selling price is one thing, actual value is determined by what someone wants to pay for it. Sometimes a price is set based on what the seller paid for it. Other times is can be set by what the market will bear. There isn't necessarily going to be a quantitative metric that spits out a price per gram. I've owned Tamagahane Kamisori that did not cost a lot, have also had blue steel Kamisori that cost a pretty penny.
Condition matters, rarity of the piece matters, size matters, NOS matters, brand matters, steel type can certainly matter but not always, presentation matters, and so on.
A typical Henkotsu make sell for notably more or less than a nearly identical Tosuke or Kikuokan for no apparent reason or perhaps some very good reasons. Each razor has to be evaluated on it's own, hypothetical pricing is a waste of time.
Many if not most of the auction-site sellers are just moving bulk product, have minimal knowledge. Same for the stone sellers. They're just buying bulk auction lots from clearing houses and parting the goods out on auction/selling platforms. Pricing is often based on what closed auctions ended at but since they don't know what they are holding or looking at or selling it's all guess work. The Onus is on the buyer to determine the 'worth' of the item.
If the buyer has no clue, then it's the blind leading the blind.
I second everything @Gamma said and will add, I happen to own the ugliest Hentoksu on the planet which looks better now (the other side is uglier still) but left as pictured on purpose. This razor was covered in active rust and devil’s spit when I saw it for sale on eBay but I figured since it was 8/8+ I’d have enough steel to work with. Bought it for -$40 and it has the awesomest steel I’ve ever encountered in the thousands of Kamisori I’ve honed. Judging from the stamp misplacement this a most likely an apprentice razor but it’s an amazing shaver.
Attachments
P.S. There have been only a handful of Kamisori that I have been able to start at 1K only because the Kakata was located under the soft iron section and the blue steel was hard enough to do so. Other than that, Omote Assassination will occur if you choose to set the bevel on anything higher than 4K land if you’re not careful.
- Thread starter
- #11
Ok wow makes sense. Thank you. Yea the razor I bought came honed so maybe he took it to a belt sander or something. When I sharpen on a 6k what seems like a ton of steel comes off pretty fast. I’m used to sharpening bushcraft knives with decent Rockwell hardness and I’ve never seen so much steel come off so quick. I think you just nailed my problem.
- Thread starter
- #12
Thanks boss. So I should refrain from buying one pre honed on eBay? Also? Is it an apprentice blade because the markings are on the handle and not the blade? Like I told the other guy I’m used to sharpening bushcraft knives and I’ve never seen so much steel come off on a 6k stone. Maybe they did ruin the heat treatment when they honed the blade.. I bought the kamisori “honed” because it was my first one. Thanks for all your help boss!!!
While it's possible the blade's temper was ruined, it's most likely that the steel you see coming off is the soft Jigane.
Study up on how Kamisori are manufactured.
If you post clear pics without glare from flash, in focus and up close it might be easier to diagnose the situation.
Study up on how Kamisori are manufactured.
If you post clear pics without glare from flash, in focus and up close it might be easier to diagnose the situation.
- Thread starter
- #14
Yea I know they are bonded with stronger steel. I don’t see any lamination line if that’s what you meant. Thanks boss
- Thread starter
- #15
I don't see any buffer related issues. Looks ok. Hard to say by photo but I'd guess the temper is fine.
Can't see too well but it looks clad to me, hagane/jigane.
If it is clad, then the size of the shoulder and bevel suggest too much pressure and it shows much wear. You have not killed the Omote but you are on the way to doing just that unless your approach changes.
i'd guess you see lots of swarf because you're grinding down the shoulder which is set into Jigane. Most people hone these with a ratio skewed to the Ura, 7:1, or so. Sort of like sharpening Kataha, in a way.
Striations suggest coarser than a 6k was used.
Or maybe a very soaked King 6k. Or maybe just a lot of pressure on the shoulder/katasaki. Maybe both.
Which brand 6k are you using? Was it lapped flat and edges chamfered?
Whatever the case, need to lay off the Omote and shoulder and focus on the bevel/edge. Could be lighting but it sorta looks like the existing honing is not consistent across the blade which might mean uneven pressure, a not flat hone, or an inconsistent hone. There's a lot going on there, can't isolate things because there are too many unknowns.
If you haven't honed a razor before, stop and get into the technique before proceeding. You still have a good amount of Omote and if the steel is actually sound then there's no reason to wipe it out 'learning'.
Can't see too well but it looks clad to me, hagane/jigane.
If it is clad, then the size of the shoulder and bevel suggest too much pressure and it shows much wear. You have not killed the Omote but you are on the way to doing just that unless your approach changes.
i'd guess you see lots of swarf because you're grinding down the shoulder which is set into Jigane. Most people hone these with a ratio skewed to the Ura, 7:1, or so. Sort of like sharpening Kataha, in a way.
Striations suggest coarser than a 6k was used.
Or maybe a very soaked King 6k. Or maybe just a lot of pressure on the shoulder/katasaki. Maybe both.
Which brand 6k are you using? Was it lapped flat and edges chamfered?
Whatever the case, need to lay off the Omote and shoulder and focus on the bevel/edge. Could be lighting but it sorta looks like the existing honing is not consistent across the blade which might mean uneven pressure, a not flat hone, or an inconsistent hone. There's a lot going on there, can't isolate things because there are too many unknowns.
If you haven't honed a razor before, stop and get into the technique before proceeding. You still have a good amount of Omote and if the steel is actually sound then there's no reason to wipe it out 'learning'.
I did a lot of honing kamisoris on the shoulder before I learned to torque when honing. I had shoulders that looked a lot like that, and only got wider as I proceeded.
Torqueing is a good thing to do in general, but mandatory on kamisoris because of the soft steel. What I think I see in your pictures is an edge that has a frown toward the heel, and has low-grit striations toward the toe.
You want to be doing rolling X-strokes, "honing toward a smile," torqueing (applying a very slight twisting force that pushes the edge bevel into the stone, so that it's favored over the shoulder), and paying close attention to feedback from the contact that tells you that things are not quite straight.
Personally, I set bevels on a kamisori with Shapton Glass 1K. But with proper torqueing, the impact to the shoulder is not excessive. If you have geometry problems; that is, if I'm seeing correctly that you have a frown toward the heel, it would take quite some time to correct on a high grit stone.
Torqueing is a good thing to do in general, but mandatory on kamisoris because of the soft steel. What I think I see in your pictures is an edge that has a frown toward the heel, and has low-grit striations toward the toe.
You want to be doing rolling X-strokes, "honing toward a smile," torqueing (applying a very slight twisting force that pushes the edge bevel into the stone, so that it's favored over the shoulder), and paying close attention to feedback from the contact that tells you that things are not quite straight.
Personally, I set bevels on a kamisori with Shapton Glass 1K. But with proper torqueing, the impact to the shoulder is not excessive. If you have geometry problems; that is, if I'm seeing correctly that you have a frown toward the heel, it would take quite some time to correct on a high grit stone.
- Thread starter
- #18
Thanks yes you nailed it. I’m new to this and I’m waiting on a 12k stone from Japan now. I’m stropping on a 8k that is ruff. It’s been used for my bushcraft knifes. Yea I tried more pressure than less pressure. It shaves ok and is very sharp but not face shave ideal. I will adjust my ratios and will have a finishing stone soon. Then I’ll get back to you. Thanks a lot boss. Great info.
- Thread starter
- #19
I will do that! Thank you! Yea I just been scrubbing like I’m sharpening a knife. I’ll do the x. I’m actually good with feedback when sharpening. I’ll make the adjustments. I never knew the shoulder was so important to the bevel. Yea knife sharpening or bushcraft knife sharpening and straight razors sharpening are like two completely different things. Thanks bro! Cheers
A lot of people believe or profess to know the one true definitive honing process for Kamisori. The reality is that there is no one single method. Honing in ratio is used by many but not by all. To start off it might be necessary to pull back the iron away from the edge but it's case to case dependent.
To get it right, one has to understand the grind, then understand the steel, and understand razor honing in general. After that it's up to the user to determine the best path forward. If the ground work isn't 100% there isn't a finisher on the plant that will save the day.
There is no one single 'truth', so far as technique goes, except that you have to have one and it has to apply to the scenario. Copy/paste honing won't usually cut it. Kamisori are purpose built. Designed for one method of cutting. Like Kataha, in fact people will sell them as such. When using a single bevel knife, traditionally, the Ura faces the material being cut. Ura is the facing side, Omote is the 'hidden' side. Orientation depends on task and tool. For a Katana, the Omote is to the body when in Saya. In the kitchen, Ura-oshi/Ura-suki is to the food. With right-handed Kamisori that were designed to be used by a barber, the Omote is 'away' from the user and the Ura shows to the user.
When using Kamisori, traditionally, the Omote is toward the face. If the edge is constructed accordingly, it will cut well. If the blade is reversed, it will cut less well. If the Kamisori is to be used omnidirectionally, a non traditional double bevel, or micro beveled edge might be better.
Not everyone hones in ratio, not everyone hones with the same ratio. 7:1 Omote/Ura is a popular approach but it's not a hill to die on.
Here's a video showing one way to skin that cat.
To get it right, one has to understand the grind, then understand the steel, and understand razor honing in general. After that it's up to the user to determine the best path forward. If the ground work isn't 100% there isn't a finisher on the plant that will save the day.
There is no one single 'truth', so far as technique goes, except that you have to have one and it has to apply to the scenario. Copy/paste honing won't usually cut it. Kamisori are purpose built. Designed for one method of cutting. Like Kataha, in fact people will sell them as such. When using a single bevel knife, traditionally, the Ura faces the material being cut. Ura is the facing side, Omote is the 'hidden' side. Orientation depends on task and tool. For a Katana, the Omote is to the body when in Saya. In the kitchen, Ura-oshi/Ura-suki is to the food. With right-handed Kamisori that were designed to be used by a barber, the Omote is 'away' from the user and the Ura shows to the user.
When using Kamisori, traditionally, the Omote is toward the face. If the edge is constructed accordingly, it will cut well. If the blade is reversed, it will cut less well. If the Kamisori is to be used omnidirectionally, a non traditional double bevel, or micro beveled edge might be better.
Not everyone hones in ratio, not everyone hones with the same ratio. 7:1 Omote/Ura is a popular approach but it's not a hill to die on.
Here's a video showing one way to skin that cat.
