Just to confirm, 8K won't cut it, right?

[totorlekiller]

So I saw a few videos on YouTube of how to hone using a Norton 4/8K and each time at the end, when they claim they are done, they come up with a lame excuses for not demonstrating HHT on it.
Things like:
- my hair are too thing and do not work for HHT
- I forgot my brush in the bathroom and I am not going to pluck my hair
- our town has been invaded by aliens and all hairs have been disintegrated by a space bacteria.

I have spent a lot of time on 8K trying to pop hair and succeeded just once. But then as soon as I started shaving with this one, the edge collapsed and I could not even finish one shave.
On my last honing, I stopped 8k when the razor was very smooth cutting arms hair. I did a bit of 12K, but did not really feel it was doing much (my stone might be crap).
Then I moved to CrOx and then the HHT really started. Then linen and leather.
The result was a great shave.
And since I keep stropping on linen and leather before and after each shave, it just gets better every time.

Am I on the right track here?

 

[SliceOfLife]

You can easily pass HHT with root out off an 8k AFTER stropping if you choke up enough. A real test (root in, 1/2"+ from grip, minimal overhang) won't pass there, but you don't see those sorts of HHT tests in any video's except HHT Demo's.

That said, 8k is not a comfortable shave for me. I would Never EVER EVVVVVEEEEEER willingly shave ATG with an 8k finish again... EVER. It's fine for a WTG pass if nothing better is available. I'm talking Mesh/Norton. I shave off 10k JIS on occasion and I expect 8k isn't a -huge- step down from that... but 8k JIS is somewhere around 50-65% the particle size of 8k Mesh/Norton.


I doubt the edge collapsed. I suspect more likely you just irritated your skin enough that your face told your brain to tell your arms that the razor was dull, so you FELT that the edge had degraded.

I don't really know how much the edge would be improving with stropping between shaves. More likely your technique either lathering, shaving, or stropping is improving and so the shaves are improving without the edge necessarily getting better (unless it's your stropping improving).

And yes, Crox off 8k is perfectly viable. It's probably one of the most common starter kits. I couldn't tell you how many times I saw people pick up 4/8k nortons and a balsa paddle. Your suspicions were probably correct in that if you're going to crox anyway, the 12k is probably kind of superfluous. That doesn't mean your stone is crap, though. after a Norton 8k, a Cnat will feel like it's not doing anything... there's nothing unusual about that.

 

[Oscroft]

I can get good shaves off an 8k (a Naniwa in my case), but my whiskers aren't especially tough. I've never tried HHT so I've no idea if it will do that, but it will pop hairs off my arm at treetop height easily.

And I can get an even better edge from 8k by doing around 100 laps on shaving cream lather to finish.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Naniwa is JIS btw. If memory serves Norton is 3micron avg with a much greater STD Dev, Naniwa is 1.8micron with a much lesser STD Dev.


edit: Naniwas 8k are actually 0.9-1.5micron avg (The Standard they are rated by (JIS 6001-1998) lists this range as the required avg)... with I BELIEVE the claimed avg being 1.2micron.

 

[Obiwan]

It all depends on the pesond preference and ability. I wouldn't be satisfied off a 8k synthetic for every day shaving, but others may. If budget is an issue, there are several cheaper options to use after the 8k (pastes, films, etc.)

 

[Oscroft]

Naniwa is JIS btw. If memory serves Norton is 3micron avg with a much greater STD Dev, Naniwa is 1.8micron with a much lesser STD Dev.

edit: Naniwas 8k are actually 0.9-1.5micron avg (The Standard they are rated by (JIS 6001-1998) lists this range as the required avg)... with I BELIEVE the claimed avg being 1.2micron.

Ah, that's interesting to know - it really is quite a difference.

 

[Gamma]

Am I on the right track here?

The fact that you're posting here means you're on the right track.... .

So I saw a few videos on YouTube of how to hone using a Norton 4/8K and each time at the end, when they claim they are done, they come up with a lame excuses for not demonstrating HHT on it.
Things like:
- my hair are too thing and do not work for HHT
- I forgot my brush in the bathroom and I am not going to pluck my hair
- our town has been invaded by aliens and all hairs have been disintegrated by a space bacteria.

When I see an HHT video, I get absolutely nothing out of it. That 'test' doesn't indicate much, if anything - to me.
I do see how this so-called test can be used to gauge your efforts against your own, but then you could do that numerous other ways also. I have never used the HHT, I never got it to work in the beginning, and still my edges shave very well. Amazing huh?
Point - If you believe that parlor tricks are indicators of someone else's proficiency, then you're not on the right track.

I have spent a lot of time on 8K trying to pop hair and succeeded just once. But then as soon as I started shaving with this one, the edge collapsed and I could not even finish one shave.

That's about right if you have a Norton 8k. That stone is uber fast. 20 laps and it's done. More laps can turn the edge to foil or wire quite quickly. At any rate - you are partially on the right track here. You are looking into the edge refinement process and trying to locate your weak points - this is good. Not fully understanding the 8k stone/stage needs some attention though.

On my last honing, I stopped 8k when the razor was very smooth cutting arms hair. I did a bit of 12K, but did not really feel it was doing much (my stone might be crap).

Is your 12k a Chinese door stop? Then you might be on the right track here. Don't rule out the possibility that your technique might need work too though.

Then I moved to CrOx and then the HHT really started. Then linen and leather.
The result was a great shave.

Crox can probably make a credit card shave ready - so yeah, that stuff can turn an underdone edge into a useable one also. It can also pull off a wire edge and smooth out the underlying distraction. Some people love Crox - some do not - preferences are what they are. I don't like it but I do know it can be very effective. It got me through my first few months of poorly honed edges, albeit with a bunch of ittitation but that's another story. If you got a great shave, there you're probably going in the right direction here too.

And since I keep stropping on linen and leather before and after each shave, it just gets better every time.

Obviously on the right track here.

 

[Steve56]

You can shave off it but it isn't where you want to end up IMO. I have a Hakka (actually 2), a La Dressante coticule, and a mid-grit akepin. All produce about the same edge, HHT 1-2 at best after stropping. This is without any special coticule methods, just typical honing.

But all these are pre-finishers to me, not the end of the hone road.

Cheers, Steve

 

[Steve56]

BTW, the HHT is all relative but still useful. It's an easy way to test if the toe is as sharp as the heel is as sharp as the middle...

it can be useful to see if the edge is getting sharper than before, say after the C12k vs the 8k.

It's also true that an edge that tests HHT 4-5 will feel sharper than one that tests HHT 1-2. IMO.

Cheers, Steve

 

[rockviper]

You can shave off an 8K, but it won't be the most comfortable. If you don't want to send more on a higher grit stone, then I would suggest a pasted strop (or film) as a method to refine the edge a bit more at minimal cost.

 

[ouch]

Men have been using straight razors long before they even knew what a "grit" was. For a long time, the Norton was a standard recommendation, even though their 8K is more akin to a 5K. Then Shaptons and Naniwas became the darlings, while natural stones have been around forever (just about literally). Next year some guy will discover a vein of rock with magical powers and sell them to the next generation of bandwagon jumpers (I won't be the seller. Honest. You can trust me. )

The point is, there are many ways to skin this particular cat, including the priced-ever-so-nice films. What one man loves another finds barbaric. You are certainly on the right track, simply because you're trying a variety of techniques, one of which you will eventually settle upon. Until the next thing and/or urge comes along.

 

[Disburden]

I hate to throw a wrench into this but I've gotten very smooth skin friendly shaves from my norton 8k when I learned it.

 

[cb91710]

When I see an HHT video, I get absolutely nothing out of it. That 'test' doesn't indicate much, if anything - to me.
I do see how this so-called test can be used to gauge your efforts against your own, but then you could do that numerous other ways also. I have never used the HHT, I never got it to work in the beginning, and still my edges shave very well. Amazing huh?

+1

Same here. I can spend a half hour honing up my Wacker and shave with it for 6 months... yet it will BARELY pass HHT using my wife's spider-silk hair. I've never seen anything better than "Snag and pop" or "Violin" from that blade, and never along the full length. None of my other straights will pass any kind of HHT on her hair, including the Gold Dollar that Seraphim PIF'd me.

Hair varies by person, and some hair simply will not "pop".

Even more silly than HHT is a month or two ago when some new members started talking about "treetopping" as an indication that the bevel was set... to pop arm hair with the blade held AWAY from the skin. The sudden appearance of the term gave me the feeling that the "test" was something that had recently appeared on another forum.
Once again, a person with thin blonde hair is not going to have the same results as one with thick black hair. I can't "tree-top" with a blade that is done and ready for 6 months of use.

Any of these tests can be valid for an individual, because your hair is going to be consistent, but when I can take one of Craig's blades that pops a perfect HHT-5 for him and I can't pull an HHT-1 out of it, that puts the comparative validity of the test in perspective.
If YOU can get a consistent HHT test, then that particular level of the test is valid for you and only you.
Likewise, the fact that I can not get a consistent HHT on a blade that I can shave comfortably with for 6 months indicates that I do not have a hair source that is suitable for HHT.


I suspect that there might be a market for HHT test hairs so we can all test to a standard.

 

[jpcwon]

I suspect that there might be a market for HHT test hairs so we can all test to a standard.

^^^that would be the day!!

I agree - The HHT is an individual thing that simply cannot be duplicated by different people with different people's hair... I always laugh when I see these ebay sellers who have "HHT" in the product description....Sure it may pass for them, but there's no telling how it'll ultimately shave (or if it'll pass for the buyer)...

 

[SliceOfLife]

The point is, their are many ways to skin this particular cat, including the barbaric films.

fixed

 

[Acmemfg]

Speaking of 8K stones...is there any advantage to using a Naniwa SS 8K as opposed to a Norton 8K? Specifically, it the Naniwa going to perform any better, faster, all-around spiffier than the Norton? Or maybe the Norton is the preferred stone? Or are they pretty much both the same (except for the fact you don't have to soak the Naniwa)??

 

[SliceOfLife]

Norton is faster.
Naniwa is much higher grit (different ratings systems)

A 4k naniwa (if there was one) would be ~the same grit as the Norton 8k... a bit finer due to the details of the rating systems.

Based on reports (no exp with Nani 8k), the Nani should be substantially slower-wearing and lower maintenance.

 

[Gamma]

What Ian said.

I'll add this.

The Nani 8k SS was, for me, way more consistent and harder. Or maybe not 'harder' but it resisted getting 'spongy' better.
That lack of 'spongyness' seemed, to me, to get me a better/more even polish.
Same across the grits too - I disliked the Nortons for this. I'm not saying they don't work - they do work.
What I am saying is that I don't like they way they work.
While I realize that many many people do like them and that they've had success with them, I regard the Nani SuperStones to be a better option.

 

[conroygc]

I gave up trying to use the hanging hair test about halfway into learning to hone. The results were really inconsistent, sometimes I was getting razors that shaved great but wouldn't pass HHT83 or whatever. I test and see how the razor shaves arm hair to check the progress (which is really pretty much the same thing as HHT, anyway) and am happy with the edges I get.
But finishing on an 8k Naniwa hone, then stropping and shaving? I can't say I've tried it, but I don't think it would be smooth enough for me. Usable, yes, but not ideal. If you don't want to buy another hone, maybe a strop with diamond spray or some other compound is the way to go. Or lapping films.

 

[Slash McCoy]

The 8k Norton can turn out a pretty good edge once you truly master it. But one trick that works well on nearly any hone to improve the nominal edge quality off the hone is to finish with lather and a lot lot lot of very light laps. Max out the stone without lather first. Strop to remove any fin or wire that you might have, if you are concerned about that. Then rinse the stone and apply lather. The cushion of lather prevents the abrasive particles from digging in so deep into the steel. Lighter pressure allows more cushion. Heavier pressure squeezes the lather and gives less cushion. Start with moderate pressure and gradually lighten it, and replenish lather as needed. Takes a couple of blades before you really get the hang of maintaining lather free of slurry and progressing lighter and lighter with the pressure, but when you got it your 8k will amaze you. The humble 6k King has given me quite a few decent shaves using this technique.